RAPT Pill

[KegLand-com-au]

This is my first post so howdy all!
The user changing endpoint thing is good news as I would dearly love to send data to my local server (on my LAN) and do my magic there. I also write Android apps and would love to integrate it to my app for brewing without using your public api. Although I do publish apps, I have chosen to not publish my brew app at this point. I wrote it to keep track of my wines (I have brewed around 20 batches in the last year, its a need to age before drinking thing). Actually a lot of my apps are written for my private use. Yes, I am a IT professional engineer by trade.
Totally understand about not taking your portal OpenSource.
Just for the record and the ongoing interesting discussion here:
I have ordered the Hydrom. I already have 2 pills, one seems to stay better calibrated then the other but both are usefully operational. I have been using them around a year. Very happy with them. About my only complaint is my old hands have trouble opening them up. But I like the smooth body design and double Oring. Ah to be a younger man again
I got the Hydrom to do a comparison and for the comms capabilities for experimenting (yes its 100 bucks but hey, worthwhile. I have four fermenters so 3 hydrometers wont go to waste and I can post useful side by side data). I plan to put them both in the one brew as a true side by side test. Does anyone see any problems with having a pill and a hydrom in the one fermenter?
It has been an interesting read so far!

The only issues that I have seen with the pill calibration going out are:

1. Things getting stuck on the outside of the pill such as krausen.
2. When the pill is opened up for charging customers do not always tighten them back up to the same level and this puts out calibration quite a bit if that happens. If you want to avoid this I highly recommend just purchasing the wireless charging kit.

The hydrom will be equally effected by both of these things above and due to the non-smooth cap that has an exposed thread I would have assumed that 1 would potentially be worse. I would be keen to see some side by side data though and you should have no issues using both in the fermenter at the same time.

If you were going to do side by side testing I would also be keen for you to see if you can get side by side data on signal strength too. One easy way to compare is using the nRF Connect for mobile app.

 

[Dood63]

The only issues that I have seen with the pill calibration going out are:

1. Things getting stuck on the outside of the pill such as krausen.
2. When the pill is opened up for charging customers do not always tighten them back up to the same level and this puts out calibration quite a bit if that happens. If you want to avoid this I highly recommend just purchasing the wireless charging kit.

The hydrom will be equally effected by both of these things above and due to the non-smooth cap that has an exposed thread I would have assumed that 1 would potentially be worse. I would be keen to see some side by side data though and you should have no issues using both in the fermenter at the same time.

If you were going to do side by side testing I would also be keen for you to see if you can get side by side data on signal strength too. One easy way to compare is using the nRF Connect for mobile app.

Hey thanks, that is good advice.
I see that the opening up of the pill and resealing could introduce a change!
I did not know about the wireless charging device for the pill. That looks really good. I am going to get one. Awesome upgrade!

Q. On another note, when can we expect to see the ability to change the endpoint for the data?

I never really contemplated the side by side signal strength test, but while I am there, I cannot see a problem doing it. It would be good to also have that data. So a temp, SG and RF comparison - independent. Could be a good thing to post.
I expect to start the comparison in about 9 days or so (if the Hydrom arrives in time), I currently have a must fermenting (using the pill and I only have one Thermentor King to control the temp! )

 

[Beefcake 2000]

We use silicone o-rings with the pill hydrometer. Silicone o-rings are known to have high oxygen and co2 transmission rate. For this reason when the pill is under pressure for a long period gas will permeate into the pill housing over time. When you then get round to unscrewing the pill housing you can have gas inside for this reason.

The battery is a sealed unit and does not create gas (unless something is very wrong).

Hi all,

I have an update on this gas build up issue I was having in my now dead RAPT pill. Yesterday when I was transfering my brew from the allrounder fermentor to my keg the pill exploded in the fermentor in the brew. The photo doesn't really show it but the circuit board definately got hot and is melted. I have used the pill many many times since purchased in January 2022 and I have been meticulous with the cleaning of the pill, and the seals were in place and are undamaged on the pill case so I doubt there was a leak. The thing just blew apart. I'm not bagging the pill I liked using it but just highlighting the issue I had with it

cheers

 

[ozdevil]

Hi all,

I have an update on this gas build up issue I was having in my now dead RAPT pill. Yesterday when I was transfering my brew from the allrounder fermentor to my keg the pill exploded in the fermentor in the brew. The photo doesn't really show it but the circuit board definately got hot and is melted. I have used the pill many many times since purchased in January 2022 and I have been meticulous with the cleaning of the pill, and the seals were in place and are undamaged on the pill case so I doubt there was a leak. The thing just blew apart. I'm not bagging the pill I liked using it but just highlighting the issue I had with it

cheers

View attachment 123662View attachment 123663View attachment 123664View attachment 123665

speak with kegland mate, they are approachable and should help you out , they may not be able to fix your dead pill now but the maj just replace it for you

shoot them an email or give them a call

 

[KegLand-com-au]

Hi all,

I have an update on this gas build up issue I was having in my now dead RAPT pill. Yesterday when I was transfering my brew from the allrounder fermentor to my keg the pill exploded in the fermentor in the brew. The photo doesn't really show it but the circuit board definately got hot and is melted. I have used the pill many many times since purchased in January 2022 and I have been meticulous with the cleaning of the pill, and the seals were in place and are undamaged on the pill case so I doubt there was a leak. The thing just blew apart. I'm not bagging the pill I liked using it but just highlighting the issue I had with it

cheers

View attachment 123662View attachment 123663View attachment 123664View attachment 123665

Hey Beefcake. What fermentation pressures were you using?

As you know we use two silicone o-rings on the pill hydrometer. Silicone is a great o-ring material as it's got good spring properties and is fairly chemically resistant. One of the issues with silicone is that it has high gas transmission rate meaning both oxygen and co2 and other gasses can pass through the silicone.

When the fermenter is under pressure CO2 gradually seeps into the pill housing through the o-rings. From our testing this is fine and has not significant impact to the accuracy but if the gas in the pill gets too great and then all of a sudden the external atmosphere drops in pressure(ie you open the all rounder lid) the gas cannot be released out of the pill housing fast enough and this can cause the pill housing to pop open. From our experience this is extremly rare and the only time we have heard of this is when customers are fermenting at higher than recommended pressures. Generally speaking we recommend fermenting at about 2-10psi. If the fermenter is at an elevated pressure (above 20psi) for a long time (several weeks) this CO2 can ingress into the housing and cause this issue.

I should not that there are benefits to fermenting at low pressures but pressures above 10psi have a negative effect on the yeast so there is no reason to really be fermenting at higher pressures than 10psi.

One thing we have been considering is changing the o-rings in the pill to EPDM as EPDM has about 30times lower gas transmission rate than silicone.
If you dont mind me asking what pressure was the fermenter at prior to opening up the lid.

If you purchase the Pill from us please contact our customer service team and we will supply you with a free replacement.

 

[KegLand-com-au]

Hey thanks, that is good advice.
I see that the opening up of the pill and resealing could introduce a change!
I did not know about the wireless charging device for the pill. That looks really good. I am going to get one. Awesome upgrade!

Q. On another note, when can we expect to see the ability to change the endpoint for the data?

I never really contemplated the side by side signal strength test, but while I am there, I cannot see a problem doing it. It would be good to also have that data. So a temp, SG and RF comparison - independent. Could be a good thing to post.
I expect to start the comparison in about 9 days or so (if the Hydrom arrives in time), I currently have a must fermenting (using the pill and I only have one Thermentor King to control the temp! )

We are still working on a new firmware for this. At the moment you can still easily use the API call though so I would use this in the meantime.

 

[Beefcake 2000]

Hey Beefcake. What fermentation pressures were you using?

As you know we use two silicone o-rings on the pill hydrometer. Silicone is a great o-ring material as it's got good spring properties and is fairly chemically resistant. One of the issues with silicone is that it has high gas transmission rate meaning both oxygen and co2 and other gasses can pass through the silicone.

When the fermenter is under pressure CO2 gradually seeps into the pill housing through the o-rings. From our testing this is fine and has not significant impact to the accuracy but if the gas in the pill gets too great and then all of a sudden the external atmosphere drops in pressure(ie you open the all rounder lid) the gas cannot be released out of the pill housing fast enough and this can cause the pill housing to pop open. From our experience this is extremly rare and the only time we have heard of this is when customers are fermenting at higher than recommended pressures. Generally speaking we recommend fermenting at about 2-10psi. If the fermenter is at an elevated pressure (above 20psi) for a long time (several weeks) this CO2 can ingress into the housing and cause this issue.

I should not that there are benefits to fermenting at low pressures but pressures above 10psi have a negative effect on the yeast so there is no reason to really be fermenting at higher pressures than 10psi.

One thing we have been considering is changing the o-rings in the pill to EPDM as EPDM has about 30times lower gas transmission rate than silicone.
If you dont mind me asking what pressure was the fermenter at prior to opening up the lid.

If you purchase the Pill from us please contact our customer service team and we will supply you with a free replacement.

Hi and thanks for the quick reply. I was indeed fermenting well over 10 psi as I thought this would just carbonate the brew to a ready to drink level after transferring to the keg, and I have always done it this way without any issues so didn't know any better.

It makes sense what you have written as what happened was when I went to transfer the brew to the keg (under pressure) the filter became blocked as I had a marble in there to weigh it down and that just blocked the hole (bad advise taken there), so I was going to remove the marble by taking off the lid, and when I released the pressure thats when the Pill exploded.

Beforehand I also noticed on the RAPT portal that the bluetoothed reading was far from normal (see below screenshot) as the profile started normally then suddenly went from about 1.036-0.979. I thought the Pill had just got caught on something but you may be right in your assesment thats when the leak probably happened.

I use recycled or re-stepped yeast from Coopers pale bottles and have been doing it that way for a long time and haven't noticed any negative affects at all so didn't think there was anything wrong with how the fermentation process was going for me, the beer always tasted good and consistant in flavour.

Thank you for the offer of the replacement Pill, I find it a fantastic tool to use in conjunction with the RAPT temperature controller, just set a profile and forget it's great. I will give customer support a call tomorrow.

 

[KegLand-com-au]

Hi and thanks for the quick reply. I was indeed fermenting well over 10 psi as I thought this would just carbonate the brew to a ready to drink level after transferring to the keg, and I have always done it this way without any issues so didn't know any better.

It makes sense what you have written as what happened was when I went to transfer the brew to the keg (under pressure) the filter became blocked as I had a marble in there to weigh it down and that just blocked the hole (bad advise taken there), so I was going to remove the marble by taking off the lid, and when I released the pressure thats when the Pill exploded.

Beforehand I also noticed on the RAPT portal that the bluetoothed reading was far from normal (see below screenshot) as the profile started normally then suddenly went from about 1.036-0.979. I thought the Pill had just got caught on something but you may be right in your assesment thats when the leak probably happened.

I use recycled or re-stepped yeast from Coopers pale bottles and have been doing it that way for a long time and haven't noticed any negative affects at all so didn't think there was anything wrong with how the fermentation process was going for me, the beer always tasted good and consistant in flavour.

Thank you for the offer of the replacement Pill, I find it a fantastic tool to use in conjunction with the RAPT temperature controller, just set a profile and forget it's great. I will give customer support a call tomorrow.

View attachment 123668

Hey Beefcake. To prevent blockages to the filter I shake my fermenter fairly frequently and this helps to shake bubbles off, wash lumps of solids off the pill and as a result the lumps tent to sink down to the bottom. I dont shake so vigorously that it stirs up stuff at the bottom of the fermenter. I also only shake for a few days after high krausen or after dry hop. The shaking seems to shake bubbles off the hops and they then seem to sink down faster to the bottom of the fermenter.

I also avoid taking samples when I can see the hops and high krausen all over the floating dip tube (normally 1-2 days after I add dry hops or during high krausen).

Since doing this I have avoided getting blockages in the dip tube filter.

I should also say our dip tube filter already has a stainless weight in the end so no additional weights should be required. If you want the tip tube pickup to be lower (which I also recommend) Then attach the float to the highest loop.

With respect to pressure are you able to tell me approximately what pressure the fermenter was at when the pressure dropped. We will still replace under warranty but it's just good for future reference to know what this pressure was? I will not judge you for telling us if it was a lot more than 10psi. Also approximately how long was it at this elevated pressure?

 

[Beefcake 2000]

Hey Beefcake. To prevent blockages to the filter I shake my fermenter fairly frequently and this helps to shake bubbles off, wash lumps of solids off the pill and as a result the lumps tent to sink down to the bottom. I dont shake so vigorously that it stirs up stuff at the bottom of the fermenter. I also only shake for a few days after high krausen or after dry hop. The shaking seems to shake bubbles off the hops and they then seem to sink down faster to the bottom of the fermenter.

I also avoid taking samples when I can see the hops and high krausen all over the floating dip tube (normally 1-2 days after I add dry hops or during high krausen).

Since doing this I have avoided getting blockages in the dip tube filter.

I should also say our dip tube filter already has a stainless weight in the end so no additional weights should be required. If you want the tip tube pickup to be lower (which I also recommend) Then attach the float to the highest loop.

With respect to pressure are you able to tell me approximately what pressure the fermenter was at when the pressure dropped. We will still replace under warranty but it's just good for future reference to know what this pressure was? I will not judge you for telling us if it was a lot more than 10psi. Also approximately how long was it at this elevated pressure?

I dont really have a blockage issue, it's when I transfer to the keg I seem to get air bubbles through the line which causes the beer to froth up in the keg which I then have to stop and let it settle before I continue. I don't think its over carbed. It's more of an annoyance than anything so I was trying to have the filter lower in the wort to eliminate this, but it's all good. I got the idea of the marble from the fermzilla users facebook page. That was the first time I tried it but the angle caused it to block the tube entirely.

As far as the pressure goes I bought the fermzilla allrounder pressure brew kit in May 22 and have done many brews at least 15 or probably 20 or more and I guess the quest for me is to get a fermented brew that obviously tastes good but is also as close to being carbonated as I can so I must admit I've ramped up the spunding valve that came with it to max thinking that if it over pressurises there is still the safety of the pull ring valve. I've done this whilst using the Pill in every brew and haven't had an issue other than my original post and that is probably because of the excess pressure as discussed.

Even though the fermenting pressure has been way over 10psi I don't think the beer has ever been over carbinated, I know this because I always seem to get around 2 litres more than the keg will hold and I use a carbonation cap with some line to pressure fill a coke bottle at the end and thats how I get a sample or taste test and it has always been slightly under carbed from what I'd call ideal & it doesn't froth up when taking off the cap. That's why I crank it up, but not realizing the Pill doesn't like that much pressure until now. Being a hobby brewer I must admit I don't read as much as I should.

So to answer your question on how long it was at this elevated pressure I'd say every brew. My routine is to put the fermentor in my fridge (with pill inside) attach heat belt, insert rapt temp probe, attach spunding valve turn screw to max, close door hit start pale profile on rapt temp controller and come back in 2 weeks. This has worked well for me, I've had great and consistant results and never had a bad brew.


hope this answers your questions thanks again for taking the time to help.

cheers

 

[Beefcake 2000]

Thank you Kegland for replacing my Rapt Pill, much appreciated. I will definately ferment at a lower pressure going forward. cheers

 

[buzzradar]

Hi Kegland. Just bought a pill, seems to be working well. A suggestion to easily make it much better:

If the pill is in a shed a long way from the server the WiFi signal strength causes issues.

A simple phone app that works on bluetooth.
Place the phone near the fermenter, just download SG and temp. (similar to the pill repeater from diyhomebrewer)
I know this wont have all the bells and whistles of the WiFi version, but it would greatly improve flexibility.

Cheers

 

[KegLand-com-au]

Hi Kegland. Just bought a pill, seems to be working well. A suggestion to easily make it much better:

If the pill is in a shed a long way from the server the WiFi signal strength causes issues.

A simple phone app that works on bluetooth.
Place the phone near the fermenter, just download SG and temp. (similar to the pill repeater from diyhomebrewer)
I know this wont have all the bells and whistles of the WiFi version, but it would greatly improve flexibility.

Cheers

I would agree that the Tilt hydrometer works best when used with the pill repeater. With that said the same functionality can also be achieved if you purchase the RAPT Temp controller.

The benefit of purchasing the RAPT temp controller is that:
1. It costs similar price to the tilt repeater
2. It not only repeats the bluetooth signal from the pill hydrometer but also has way more functionality and can be used for turning of/on heating and cooling devices. It can also use the Pill hydrometer as the temp probe to control the RAPT temp controller
3. You can control more complex heating and cooling profiles that use the hydrometer reading to turn on/off the heating and cooling devices.

All you have to do is use the pill hydrometer in bluetooth mode and pair the RAPT temp controller with the RAPT Pill hydrometer and you have a far better solution that the Tilt.

 

[hotwaterpls]

I would agree that the Tilt hydrometer works best when used with the pill repeater. With that said the same functionality can also be achieved if you purchase the RAPT Temp controller.

The benefit of purchasing the RAPT temp controller is that:
1. It costs similar price to the tilt repeater
2. It not only repeats the bluetooth signal from the pill hydrometer but also has way more functionality and can be used for turning of/on heating and cooling devices. It can also use the Pill hydrometer as the temp probe to control the RAPT temp controller
3. You can control more complex heating and cooling profiles that use the hydrometer reading to turn on/off the heating and cooling devices.

All you have to do is use the pill hydrometer in bluetooth mode and pair the RAPT temp controller with the RAPT Pill hydrometer and you have a far better solution that the Tilt.

@KegLand-com-au Is there any reason not to open the Pill up to use bluetooth *without* the RAPT temp controller for users who:
a) already have an old device (phone) laying around that they can dedicate to acting as a repeater (as many users have done for the Tilt)
b) users who aren't explicitly using a temperature controller (e.g. glycol system which has temp control built in, like the G20)
c) users who already own a temp controller from another company and don't need to purchase more equipment to use functionality that exists in the Pill already

I appreciate the desire to have the maximum functionality by linking devices within the same (RAPT) ecosystem, but by doing so it's also locking users out if they don't wish to buy in to that ecosystem.

I purchased a pill previously and was excited it had bluetooth, but later realised it can only be used with a RAPT temp controller or linked to a Gen4 BZ or similar, pretty disappointing I can't use existing functionality (which would improve reliability when fermenting in stainless).

I've gone through the process of getting it set up again for a recent brew, but before that I used it once or twice and it's sat on the shelf for a couple of years doing nothing as a result.

 

[KegLand-com-au]

@KegLand-com-au Is there any reason not to open the Pill up to use bluetooth *without* the RAPT temp controller for users who:
a) already have an old device (phone) laying around that they can dedicate to acting as a repeater (as many users have done for the Tilt)
b) users who aren't explicitly using a temperature controller (e.g. glycol system which has temp control built in, like the G20)
c) users who already own a temp controller from another company and don't need to purchase more equipment to use functionality that exists in the Pill already

I appreciate the desire to have the maximum functionality by linking devices within the same (RAPT) ecosystem, but by doing so it's also locking users out if they don't wish to buy in to that ecosystem.

I purchased a pill previously and was excited it had bluetooth, but later realised it can only be used with a RAPT temp controller or linked to a Gen4 BZ or similar, pretty disappointing I can't use existing functionality (which would improve reliability when fermenting in stainless).

I've gone through the process of getting it set up again for a recent brew, but before that I used it once or twice and it's sat on the shelf for a couple of years doing nothing as a result.

Can you please install the latest version of the RAPT app. This has been updated for you. If you load the app I think this latest version will allow you to use an old phone to pickup on the bluetooth data and relay to the web just as you are asking.

It's actually quite coincidental that you are asking for this now and this update to the app was only just released. Let me know how you go with this.

NOTE: Obviously for this to work the pill must be in bluetooth mode. I should also say that you will need an android phone too. The reason why an android phone is required is because apple do not allow the MAC address to be passed onto the app. Without us receiving the MAC address we literally do not know which RAPT account to assign the bluetooth telemetry to.

 

[-Ian-]

Can you please install the latest version of the RAPT app. This has been updated for you. If you load the app I think this latest version will allow you to use an old phone to pickup on the bluetooth data and relay to the web just as you are asking.

It's actually quite coincidental that you are asking for this now and this update to the app was only just released. Let me know how you go with this.

NOTE: Obviously for this to work the pill must be in bluetooth mode. I should also say that you will need an android phone too. The reason why an android phone is required is because apple do not allow the MAC address to be passed onto the app. Without us receiving the MAC address we literally do not know which RAPT account to assign the bluetooth telemetry to.

I’m thinking of buying the Pill to use in my iGulu fermenter (arrived 8 years after ordering on kickstarter). It sits at around 20psi during fermentation is this too high to use the Pill? Thinking of adding an adjustable spunding valve to lower the pressure.

 

[KegLand-com-au]

I’m thinking of buying the Pill to use in my iGulu fermenter (arrived 8 years after ordering on kickstarter). It sits at around 20psi during fermentation is this too high to use the Pill? Thinking of adding an adjustable spunding valve to lower the pressure.

20 or 30psi is no problem with the pill and you can definitely ferment at these pressures as the pill housing can handle more than 8 bar of pressure. With that said this amount of pressure is generally not a good idea as it's putting the yeast under unnecessary stress. 5-10psi is enough pressure to suppress off aromas but also without putting unnecessary stress on the yeast.

 

[-Ian-]

20 or 30psi is no problem with the pill and you can definitely ferment at these pressures as the pill housing can handle more than 8 bar of pressure. With that said this amount of pressure is generally not a good idea as it's putting the yeast under unnecessary stress. 5-10psi is enough pressure to suppress off aromas but also without putting unnecessary stress on the yeast.

Thanks for the reply. I know the pressure is to high - I want to plumb in one of your adjustable spunding valves to bring it down - the unit comes with a PRV set to around 20psi (to high). But good to know the pill can ' take the pressure'!

 

[KegLand-com-au]

Thanks for the reply. I know the pressure is to high - I want to plumb in one of your adjustable spunding valves to bring it down - the unit comes with a PRV set to around 20psi (to high). But good to know the pill can ' take the pressure'!

If you have a single PRV I would ABSOLUTELY NOT use this as a spending device:

DO NOT USE PRV AS SPUNDING VALVE

The blog article explains why in a bit of detail.

 

[-Ian-]

If you have a single PRV I would ABSOLUTELY NOT use this as a spending device:

DO NOT USE PRV AS SPUNDING VALVE

The blog article explains why in a bit of detail.

Thanks (again). I don’t know what the internal workings of this unit are. It’s a kegerator/fermentor in one. You can see in the pictures the keg consists of a CO2 line, a PRV valve and a dispensing line. Inside the unit there’s a temp and pressure sensor as well as a heat pump for regulating temperature. I have no idea if there’s an additional PRV inside the unit. Eight years ago, probably after one to many I ordered this unit - in those days it was called something else and was supposed to produce the wort, transfer it to a fermentation chamber and dispense it all from something the size of a microwave - wishful thinking…

Eight years later this long forgotten Kickstarter project turned up on my doorstep. So I’m just trying to make the best of it. In the eight years since, I’ve pretty much settled on drinking neipa style beers which don’t really suit pressure fermentation. But with a blow tie valve teed into the CO2 line and a pill inside the keg maybe I can get a bit more use out of it. The bones are there to make something useful as you can program your own recipes in terms of time and temperature via the BT and wifi APP.

 

[KegLand-com-au]

Thanks (again). I don’t know what the internal workings of this unit are. It’s a kegerator/fermentor in one. You can see in the pictures the keg consists of a CO2 line, a PRV valve and a dispensing line. Inside the unit there’s a temp and pressure sensor as well as a heat pump for regulating temperature. I have no idea if there’s an additional PRV inside the unit. Eight years ago, probably after one to many I ordered this unit - in those days it was called something else and was supposed to produce the wort, transfer it to a fermentation chamber and dispense it all from something the size of a microwave - wishful thinking…

Eight years later this long forgotten Kickstarter project turned up on my doorstep. So I’m just trying to make the best of it. In the eight years since, I’ve pretty much settled on drinking neipa style beers which don’t really suit pressure fermentation. But with a blow tie valve teed into the CO2 line and a pill inside the keg maybe I can get a bit more use out of it. The bones are there to make something useful as you can program your own recipes in terms of time and temperature via the BT and wifi APP.

Do you have to pay for the monthly subscription fee or do you get full control of the device set temp using the phone app?