ClubmanPlus850
New Member
Hi all!
I have been in discussion with Darin at @KegLand-com-au (Darin, if you are lurking, I am moving this discussion here 1) to prevent you having to forever deal with my mails and 2) in case it helps someone else)
I haven't brewed in a long time (best part of 20 years) and so getting back into it. So much has changed (for the better) and I noted that without a lot of the new products that KegLand have released in the last few years (and the pricing) I probably wouldn't be able to brew with the restrictions I have. Having said that, I am located in Sweden - but messaging here as the questions I have are regarding KegLand products specifically and my LHS has not had the answers I seek!
I bought a stack of equipment in the recent sales - namely 2x Oxebar 8L kegs, 2x cases of 2.5L PET bottles, 20 Plastic Carbonation Caps, 10 Plastic tee pieces and a bunch of ancillary pieces like DuoTight and JohnGuest connections, EVABarrier beer and gas lines, Silicon dip tubes. Lastly, for this conversation I have a Gas Free Ball Lock Line Cleaning Kit (Gas Free Ball Lock Line Cleaning Kit (Yellow Hand Pump, PCO Tee (fxmxm), Carbonation cap Yellow, 30cm EVABarrier 5mm x 8mm)) and Master Blaster Bottle Washer (Master Blaster Bottle Washer)
Due to fridge space limitations, my plan is to use the 2.5L PET bottles as mini kegs. I plan to use a siphon/bottling wand to fill each bottle from the fermenter and add a carbonation cap to then carbonate from a Mini 360 regulator + SodaStream. The oxebar kegs will be used in winter when the shed (remember, Sweden!) is cold enough to chill the keg sufficiently to carbonate. In Summer, I will be stuck using the 2.5L bottles. My only available fridge is one of those 50L circular party coolers (which I got for free, so won't complain) - due to winter being cold, this is my fermentation chamber at the moment. In summer, I will ferment in the shed, and chill bottles for carbonating and serving in the fridge. With that said, if we imagine I have a 20L of beer/cider fermented, and it's bottling day.
In a previous discussion with Darin, he has said regarding sanitizing Oxebar kegs and PET bottles (and anything really)
I'm going to keep this simple and offer real world advice.
Use StallarSan internally. Kegs, fermenters, growlers, bottles, whatever. This is exactly what it is for - I (for example) always have a keg filled with 19L of StellarSan that I push from one keg to another to sanitise and purge. I store it in my fermenters (PET, similar to OXEBAR kegs) until use as well. This is a non issue.
If used externally,. StellarSan will attack whatever surface it is on, as the water content will evaporate before the acid. Hence, externally, we always use an ethanol spray, not StellarSan, even on fittings designed to be resistant to chemical attack (such as duotights).
So, StellarSan inside, Ethanol outside. Easy and foolproof.
which all sounds reasonable, but given the amount I just spent on equipment I want to make sure I get this right - and am still unsure about a few things; sorry if this is a stupid question
in the below, what I refer to as "Keg Kits" are two carbonation caps on a tee-piece with a dip tube.
i should also add that in Sweden we have StarSan, not StellaSan - so in the below I say "sanitzer" instead. My assumption is that StarSan is the same phosphoric acid based cleaner as StellarSan, and so the advice is interchangeable, and I don't need to take any other actions due to the difference (please correct me if I am wrong though)
my conclusion from the above is to just do a pressure transfer of sanitizer to the keg/bottle - this should then mean that you basically keep sanitizer inside the keg/bottle, and wherever will touch beer will be sanitized (including the inside of ball locks, the dip tube, the lid) and that will mean that the outer surfaces will be sanitizer free. And I get that... but I am not sure that will work for me in practice, as I don't (at this stage) have a spare keg to hold sanitizer (nor the space to store another). I guess I could do it with a coke bottle, "keg kit" though? Not sure the Gas Free Ball Lock Line Cleaner will help me here
In anycase, my questions are still what should you do if you spill sanitizer on the outside of a bottle/keg/carbonation cap? is it sufficient to wash it off with the garden hose?
My original plan was (assuming a fermenter fill with beer ready for bottling/kegging)
1. Fill the master blaster base with sanitizer
2. Fill a bucket with sanitizer and add the carbonation caps <- here the carb caps are sitting in sanitizer
3. Sanitize a siphon and bottling wand
4. Sanitize a bottle with the master blaster <- here is where I am thinking is the greatest chance of the outside of the bottle getting sanitizer over it
5. Fill the bottle
6. add a carb cap, squeezing the air out before tightening <- here sanitizer will be dripping from the carb cap to the bottle; from hands etc
7. Use my Mini 360 regulator to fill head space with CO2; release the carb cap and squeeze to remove air; fill with CO2 again (bottle can now be stored ready to be carbonated -> as I have 9 bottles to carb, I need to do them in batches of 2, hence purging)
8. Once all 9 bottles are done, take two and connect to the regulator and let sit at serving pressure to carbonate (I have two regulators, so one will be for carbonating and one for serving - or if not carbonating I have up to 4 taps)
9. For serving, take a soda bottle of sanitizer, connect a "keg kit" and with a bit of CO2 push sanitizer through - "keg kit" and line sanitized at the same time
yes, it sounds like a lot of work... but its the best process I can come up with right now with the space and fridge I have.
and hence my question - in a few steps above, there is a good chance sanitizer is going to be sitting on outer surfaces - what is the best recommendation here? is there a better way to do what I want to do?
if you were using PET bottle lids instead of Carbonation Caps, what would you do?
but at the same time, after watching plenty of home brew videos on YouTube, you see plenty of casual spraying of sanitizer over every surface - you see airlocks sitting in bowls of sanitizer... the master blaster is another, the siphon will need to be sanitized inside and out... so I assume that washing down with water on outer surfaces is the way to go? so after step 9 in my plan, I can just take each bottle and wash it down? or maybe I am reading waaay too much into the affects of sanitizer than I should? as I say, i have invested enough money in this now that I don't wanna screw it up for not asking a question!
in the above if I am using a oxebar instead, then my question still applies - I plan to use the two I have to fill with a Swedish Christmas Soda for the kids - I am guessing being me, that if i fill the keg with santizer I will end up spilling it everywhere - but basically the plan is to fill it with sanitizer, add the hydra tapping head and shake, then drain and fill. Again, is the best course of action here just to wash down with water?
with the carbonation caps though perhaps it is best to pass sanitizer through them instead of soaking? so use the Gas Free Ball Lock Cleaning Kit with a picnic tap to just push some sanitizer through? then I can use a spare keg kit and spunding valve to pressure transfer sanitizer to the bottle to be filled? (though I can still imagine I would be good at spilling all over the place!)
lastly, what is the advice for sanitizing the outside of a siphon/bottling wand - the inside is easy enough, just run sanitizer through... but the outside will sit in the fermenter when in use, and inside the bottle/keg... do you have a box big enough to lie it down in and cover with sanitizer?
any help will be greatly appreciated!
I have been in discussion with Darin at @KegLand-com-au (Darin, if you are lurking, I am moving this discussion here 1) to prevent you having to forever deal with my mails and 2) in case it helps someone else)
I haven't brewed in a long time (best part of 20 years) and so getting back into it. So much has changed (for the better) and I noted that without a lot of the new products that KegLand have released in the last few years (and the pricing) I probably wouldn't be able to brew with the restrictions I have. Having said that, I am located in Sweden - but messaging here as the questions I have are regarding KegLand products specifically and my LHS has not had the answers I seek!
I bought a stack of equipment in the recent sales - namely 2x Oxebar 8L kegs, 2x cases of 2.5L PET bottles, 20 Plastic Carbonation Caps, 10 Plastic tee pieces and a bunch of ancillary pieces like DuoTight and JohnGuest connections, EVABarrier beer and gas lines, Silicon dip tubes. Lastly, for this conversation I have a Gas Free Ball Lock Line Cleaning Kit (Gas Free Ball Lock Line Cleaning Kit (Yellow Hand Pump, PCO Tee (fxmxm), Carbonation cap Yellow, 30cm EVABarrier 5mm x 8mm)) and Master Blaster Bottle Washer (Master Blaster Bottle Washer)
Due to fridge space limitations, my plan is to use the 2.5L PET bottles as mini kegs. I plan to use a siphon/bottling wand to fill each bottle from the fermenter and add a carbonation cap to then carbonate from a Mini 360 regulator + SodaStream. The oxebar kegs will be used in winter when the shed (remember, Sweden!) is cold enough to chill the keg sufficiently to carbonate. In Summer, I will be stuck using the 2.5L bottles. My only available fridge is one of those 50L circular party coolers (which I got for free, so won't complain) - due to winter being cold, this is my fermentation chamber at the moment. In summer, I will ferment in the shed, and chill bottles for carbonating and serving in the fridge. With that said, if we imagine I have a 20L of beer/cider fermented, and it's bottling day.
In a previous discussion with Darin, he has said regarding sanitizing Oxebar kegs and PET bottles (and anything really)
I'm going to keep this simple and offer real world advice.
Use StallarSan internally. Kegs, fermenters, growlers, bottles, whatever. This is exactly what it is for - I (for example) always have a keg filled with 19L of StellarSan that I push from one keg to another to sanitise and purge. I store it in my fermenters (PET, similar to OXEBAR kegs) until use as well. This is a non issue.
If used externally,. StellarSan will attack whatever surface it is on, as the water content will evaporate before the acid. Hence, externally, we always use an ethanol spray, not StellarSan, even on fittings designed to be resistant to chemical attack (such as duotights).
So, StellarSan inside, Ethanol outside. Easy and foolproof.
which all sounds reasonable, but given the amount I just spent on equipment I want to make sure I get this right - and am still unsure about a few things; sorry if this is a stupid question
in the below, what I refer to as "Keg Kits" are two carbonation caps on a tee-piece with a dip tube.
i should also add that in Sweden we have StarSan, not StellaSan - so in the below I say "sanitzer" instead. My assumption is that StarSan is the same phosphoric acid based cleaner as StellarSan, and so the advice is interchangeable, and I don't need to take any other actions due to the difference (please correct me if I am wrong though)
my conclusion from the above is to just do a pressure transfer of sanitizer to the keg/bottle - this should then mean that you basically keep sanitizer inside the keg/bottle, and wherever will touch beer will be sanitized (including the inside of ball locks, the dip tube, the lid) and that will mean that the outer surfaces will be sanitizer free. And I get that... but I am not sure that will work for me in practice, as I don't (at this stage) have a spare keg to hold sanitizer (nor the space to store another). I guess I could do it with a coke bottle, "keg kit" though? Not sure the Gas Free Ball Lock Line Cleaner will help me here
In anycase, my questions are still what should you do if you spill sanitizer on the outside of a bottle/keg/carbonation cap? is it sufficient to wash it off with the garden hose?
My original plan was (assuming a fermenter fill with beer ready for bottling/kegging)
1. Fill the master blaster base with sanitizer
2. Fill a bucket with sanitizer and add the carbonation caps <- here the carb caps are sitting in sanitizer
3. Sanitize a siphon and bottling wand
4. Sanitize a bottle with the master blaster <- here is where I am thinking is the greatest chance of the outside of the bottle getting sanitizer over it
5. Fill the bottle
6. add a carb cap, squeezing the air out before tightening <- here sanitizer will be dripping from the carb cap to the bottle; from hands etc
7. Use my Mini 360 regulator to fill head space with CO2; release the carb cap and squeeze to remove air; fill with CO2 again (bottle can now be stored ready to be carbonated -> as I have 9 bottles to carb, I need to do them in batches of 2, hence purging)
8. Once all 9 bottles are done, take two and connect to the regulator and let sit at serving pressure to carbonate (I have two regulators, so one will be for carbonating and one for serving - or if not carbonating I have up to 4 taps)
9. For serving, take a soda bottle of sanitizer, connect a "keg kit" and with a bit of CO2 push sanitizer through - "keg kit" and line sanitized at the same time
yes, it sounds like a lot of work... but its the best process I can come up with right now with the space and fridge I have.
and hence my question - in a few steps above, there is a good chance sanitizer is going to be sitting on outer surfaces - what is the best recommendation here? is there a better way to do what I want to do?
if you were using PET bottle lids instead of Carbonation Caps, what would you do?
but at the same time, after watching plenty of home brew videos on YouTube, you see plenty of casual spraying of sanitizer over every surface - you see airlocks sitting in bowls of sanitizer... the master blaster is another, the siphon will need to be sanitized inside and out... so I assume that washing down with water on outer surfaces is the way to go? so after step 9 in my plan, I can just take each bottle and wash it down? or maybe I am reading waaay too much into the affects of sanitizer than I should? as I say, i have invested enough money in this now that I don't wanna screw it up for not asking a question!
in the above if I am using a oxebar instead, then my question still applies - I plan to use the two I have to fill with a Swedish Christmas Soda for the kids - I am guessing being me, that if i fill the keg with santizer I will end up spilling it everywhere - but basically the plan is to fill it with sanitizer, add the hydra tapping head and shake, then drain and fill. Again, is the best course of action here just to wash down with water?
with the carbonation caps though perhaps it is best to pass sanitizer through them instead of soaking? so use the Gas Free Ball Lock Cleaning Kit with a picnic tap to just push some sanitizer through? then I can use a spare keg kit and spunding valve to pressure transfer sanitizer to the bottle to be filled? (though I can still imagine I would be good at spilling all over the place!)
lastly, what is the advice for sanitizing the outside of a siphon/bottling wand - the inside is easy enough, just run sanitizer through... but the outside will sit in the fermenter when in use, and inside the bottle/keg... do you have a box big enough to lie it down in and cover with sanitizer?
any help will be greatly appreciated!
