No-rinse Sanitiser I Bought

[kook]

Just caught up on this thread - in case nobody else has pointed it out, never use colloidial silver type sanitisers on surfaces in contact with yeast. Same goes for those filter cartridges with a carbon/silver content. The silver sticks around and is VERY effective at killing bugs on a long term basis. Unfortunately it also kills yeast cells.

Wes

Does this include using carbon/silver filters pre-boil? I've just installed a two stage water filter for my HLT which uses one of these.

 

[MHB]

Silver has been an interesting question for some time, the makers of the Shield type products (peroxide/silver/stabiliser) use Silver Nitrate.
The Silver in silver Silver Nitrate will combine with free Chlorine to form insoluble Silver Chloride; this will precipitate in no time. Silver Chloride is if the memory is working, is what is used to define "Insoluble" (ksp 10^-19, but it's been a long time so dont quote me).
There will be enough free Cl around to precipitate out the Silver in a very stable non reactive form, there is I think no need to worry about the traces of silver in commercial sanitiser, there will always be enough salt (NaCl) around to get rid of it for us.

The silver in water purifiers is there to stop the growth of algae and bacteria, the amount that comes out in the water (Elutes) is minuscule, until the filter is exhausted then you see a rise in the silver elution, this is a reason you shouldnt push a Silver/Carbon filter too far, the other obvious one is that by this time it isnt filtering.

MHB

 

[Wortgames]

So is the silver in BrewShield / Herlisil etc worth getting excited about? Or would plain hydrogen peroxide do the trick perfectly well without it?

EDIT: just found that according to the website:

Manufactured using a patented process which enables the stable combination of Hydrogen Peroxide and Silver Ions. This combination of H2O2 and Silver Ions results in a synergistic effect which gives the Herlisil a efficacy of up to 15 times greater than the equivalent hydrogen peroxide. The Australian Medical Health & Research Council has recommended the use of this product for the batch disinfection of Potable Water at a maximum dose of 35 ppm!

also, not sure if others found this, but there's a link to brewery-specific data for Herlisil here: http://www.reach-for-life.com/Herlisil/Test_docs/H8466.pdf

I've noticed there is a vent in the lid of BrewShield, a little hole with what looks like a paper filter underneath - any idea what this is for?!

Also, assuming we could get plain, food grade stuff from a chemical supplier, how would hydrogen peroxide compare with phosphoric acid for brewers? eg, contact times, shelf life, staining / corrosion etc?

And if we could get our hands on 25L of Herlisil, anyone in Melbourne interested in a 5-way split?!

 

[Darren]

So is the silver in BrewShield / Herlisil etc worth getting excited about? Or would plain hydrogen peroxide do the trick perfectly well without it?

I've also noticed there is a vent in the lid of BrewShield, a little hole with what looks like a paper filter underneath - any idea what this is for?!

Finally, assuming we can get plain, food grade stuff from a chemical supplier, how would hydrogen peroxide compare with phosphoric acid for brewers? eg, contact times, shelf life, staining / corrosion etc?

Wortgames,

The vent is just that, to ensure that bottle does not acumulate pressure.
Shelf life is pretty good for conc H2O2. The 30% stock will rip the skin off your fingers in seconds so be careful with it.

cheers

Darren

 

[MHB]

Hi Wortgames

The silver is very effective when used as a rinse or spray, when it gets into wort or too much chlorinated tap water for that matter; it converts to an insoluble form. So it won't cause any problems to the yeast (in reasonable doses).
So if you are using it as a contact steriliser the silver is very effective, so is the peroxide - but together you get a double whammy. The silver remains effective even when the peroxide has dried and converted to water and oxygen, so yes I like the combination and think it's very effective.

The little hole in the top of the bottle is a vent, covered with a semipermeable membrane. This is to allow oxygen to escape; Hydrogen peroxide slowly converts back into oxygen and water, the makers add a stabiliser (I think its sodium thiosulphate, again old memories) but it still slowly degrades and gases off, the vent prevents a pressure build-up.

No doubt there are plenty of alternatives out there and they will all have their pros and cons. But I like the shield/sanitize type products.
The combination is better than just peroxide, as for some other products mentioned; it is not corrosive like acids, nor flammable like alcohol.
It's safe, easy to use, reasonably priced and easily available.

PS
Mr D Posted while I was still typing, good point Darren.

Conc. H2O2 is very dangerous. Good for rocket fuel, bleaching paper and yep will rip your skin off.

Cheers, ya just gota love industrial strength.

MHB


MHB

 

[Wortgames]

Cool, thanks guys - I'm liking the Herlisil type sanitiser more and more.

They list its ingredients as:

hydrogen peroxide 50%
complex silver ions <0.09%
phosphoric acid as H2PO4 <1ppm
water to 100%

MSDS states to wear gloves and describes it as 'moderate corrosive and irritant' to skin, yet the dilution rate is between 5 - 100ml per litre depending on application, which would appear to make it pretty similar to Morgan's Sanitize at 60ml per litre - does this sound right?

 

[johnno]

Well they are in melbourne...
" Food and Beverage

Processing Industry

Herlisil FP

the non chlorine

environmentally safe alternative

Reach For Life Intl. Pty. Ltd. 2/61 Rushdale Street Knoxfield Vic. 3180

Ph. 03 9763 3988 Fax 03 9763 3977 "
Might have to ring them.....

I just got of the phone to these dudes and the 20 litre drum is $385 including GST.

They also sell the 1 litre safe bottles to store it in for 70cents a pop.

This stuff is awesome.

The solution is 50 ml per 1000 litrs so it will last a long long time.

If there was enough interest in Melbourne this would be a good way to go for a great no rinse sanitiser.

$385/20 is 19.95 if my calcs are correct.

I would definately be in for a couple of litres.

chers
johnno

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

I use 50% conc H202 and put about 20ml into a 1ltr spray bottle. It stings like hell if you get it onot a cut, and foams up .

The made up solution lasts about 1 week and actually produces bubbles, much like lemonade bubbles in the bottle. I actually have top loosen the spray bottle top because the pressure forces to liquid out of the spray head.

Took me ages to work out why my bottle was slowly getting empty ( or less full ). After a week the bottle would be half empty

It also makes a good water treatment. I filled my ferm up with tank water and added 50ml of H2O2 and after a few hrs you could notice the difference in coulour of the water.Turned the water crystal clear.

Its good stuff. and only cost $12ltr on conc form

 

[Wortgames]

Good work Johnno, $20 a litre for the good stuff sounds like pretty good value.

I'm not sure about 50ml per 1000 litres - is that what they said? According to the MSDS for Herlisil the dilution rate is 'between 5 - 100ml per litre'. Maybe the lower rate is for sanitising the actual brewing liquor (ie for human consumption)?

I'm definitely keen for a litre or two regardless, but I'd be really interested to know a bit more about how long it stays effective, both as a concentrate in the vented bottle and once made up into solution?

edit: according to the 'technical bulletin - Herlisil FP in breweries', they suggest adding it into water at the following rates:

Spray and area sanitation: 0.5% - 1% concentration (ie 5-10ml per litre)
Spray and area disinfection: 4% - 6% concentration (ie 40-60ml per litre)
Volume (or batch) sanitation: 30-100mg/L (ie 0.3-1ml per 10L / 3-10ml per 100L / 30-100ml per 1000L).

 

[johnno]

Good work Johnno, $20 a litre for the good stuff sounds like pretty good value.

I'm not sure about 50ml per 1000 litres - is that what they said? According to the MSDS for Herlisil the dilution rate is 'between 5 - 100ml per litre'. Maybe the lower rate is for sanitising the actual brewing liquor (ie for human consumption)?

I'm definitely keen for a litre or two regardless, but I'd be really interested to know a bit more about how long it stays effective, both as a concentrate in the vented bottle and once made up into solution?

Hi Wortgames,
unfortunately in my excitement I forgot to ask about shelf life once made up etc.

He did mention that that a lot of European Breweries use it.

It is a good price but someone has to organise it then it has to be picked up, then split into litres. Lots of running around.

I just got of the phone to another mob where I have shopped before (Advance chemicals) and they do not have any with the silver ions in it. They do offer a 50% Hydrogen Peroxide mix though. Which is fairly cheap.

One thing he did keep telling me though was bout this stuff called Per citric acid and its more concentrated form per acidic acid? It is supposed to be no rinse as well.

Has anyone ever used this stuff?

At the moment as I am in need of some more no rinse sanitiser I may just get another litre of 85% Phosphoric acid ($10 litre) and a couple of kilos of 100% Sodium percarbonate ($10 kg).

I have found the phos acid to be very good and whilst the herisil sounds awesome it will be a fair bit of farting around getting it organised.

cheers
johnno

 

[Lukes]

I never did get down to check this stuff out last year :blink: .

 

[Wortgames]

Hi Johnno, I'm happy to take over the farting around if you like - hopefully we can get enough folks interested.

I reckon this Herlisil is the good stuff, from what I can tell it is the same stuff as Brewshield and Morgan's Sanitize - but those products MAY be pre-diluted, as Sanitize gives a dilution rate of 30ml per litre.

So we just need 10 folks to buy 2L each at $40. That's enough to make 40L of disinfectant, or up to 400L of spray sanitiser!

Assuming Johnno and myself are in, we just need another 8 brewers in Melbourne who want to get stocked up with top notch sanitiser.

Who's in?


edit: technical info here

 

[johnno]

Hi Johnno, I'm happy to take over the farting around if you like - hopefully we can get enough folks interested.

I reckon this Herlisil is the good stuff, from what I can tell it is the same stuff as Brewshield and Morgan's Sanitize - but those products MAY be pre-diluted, as Sanitize gives a dilution rate of 30ml per litre.

So we just need 10 folks to buy 2L each at $40. That's enough to make 40L of disinfectant, or up to 400L of spray sanitiser!

Assuming Johnno and myself are in, we just need another 8 brewers in Melbourne who want to get stocked up with top notch sanitiser.

Who's in?

Hi wortgames,
Yes i would be in on that. I would even be happy with 1 litre if it comes down to it and there is a lot of interest.

Maybe give him a call (his name is Martin) and confirm shelf life etc.

Thanks for taking over as I am quite busy at the moment.

cheers
johnno

 

[RobW]

Hi Johnno, I'm happy to take over the farting around if you like - hopefully we can get enough folks interested.

I reckon this Herlisil is the good stuff, from what I can tell it is the same stuff as Brewshield and Morgan's Sanitize - but those products MAY be pre-diluted, as Sanitize gives a dilution rate of 30ml per litre.

So we just need 10 folks to buy 2L each at $40. That's enough to make 40L of disinfectant, or up to 400L of spray sanitiser!

Assuming Johnno and myself are in, we just need another 8 brewers in Melbourne who want to get stocked up with top notch sanitiser.

Who's in?
edit: technical info here

Me, sounds like a good buy.

 

[Ross]

I use 50% conc H202 and put about 20ml into a 1ltr spray bottle. It stings like hell if you get it onot a cut, and foams up .

Bloody hell Stu!!! I use a 12% H2O2 solution that's then diluted to 1ml/L (max 5ml/L)
You are using that at way over the need concentration...

cheers Ross

 

[Lukes]

I,m in for 2ltrs.
Don't forget the bottle's @ 70 cents to store it.

:beerbang:

- Luke

 

[Guest Lurker]

One thing he did keep telling me though was bout this stuff called Per citric acid and its more concentrated form per acidic acid? It is supposed to be no rinse as well.

Has anyone ever used this stuff?

I think you are referring to peracetic acid. Good sanitiser, also for removing beer stone etc. Its pretty nasty stuff, full on protective clothing when using. Dont know if its true, but supposedly there is a brewer in Perth with only one working eye from using it.

 

[Wortgames]

The bottles are included in the $40 - and I stand to make a tidy profit of 5c a litre on the whole lot...

Mwahahahaha... :super:


OK, so we've got:

Johnno
Me
RobW
Luke

all in for 2L - so there's 6 more lots available...

 

[Ross]

I just got of the phone to these dudes and the 20 litre drum is $385 including GST.

They also sell the 1 litre safe bottles to store it in for 70cents a pop.

This stuff is awesome.

The solution is 50 ml per 1000 litrs so it will last a long long time.

If there was enough interest in Melbourne this would be a good way to go for a great no rinse sanitiser.

$385/20 is 19.95 if my calcs are correct.

I would definately be in for a couple of litres.

chers
johnno

Johnno,

Basically the same product I buy up here called Hysan. I can't recommend this product high enough.
Totally odourless, tasteless & no annoying staining.
Lasts longer if used with RO water & needs to be stored out of direct sunlight. So don't store in a clear bottle.

Cheers Ross

 

[johnno]

Johnno,

Basically the same product I buy up here called Hysan. I can't recommend this product high enough.
Totally odourless, tasteless & no annoying staining.
Lasts longer if used with RO water & needs to be stored out of direct sunlight. So don't store in a clear bottle.

Cheers Ross

Hi Ross,
yes it does sound like excellent stuff.

Whilst I have been happy to use bleach and phosphoric acid till now, I think it is good to change your sanitiser over time as I am always worried about germs building up immunity and causing problems.

cheers
johnno