No More Protein Resting For Me

[Benniee]

As I now have many years of brewing ahead of me, maybe I will get to the bottom of it yet.

I hope that means there's been good news on your health mate.

Benniee

 

[Thirsty Boy]

So if you're resting at 55C, are you getting higher attenuation as you are sitting inside the beta amylase range, or is 5 mins too short for that?

Are you then raising the temp to standard mashing temperatures (e.g. 66C) or are you going slightly higher to compensate for the 5min 55C rest?

I'd say thats probably how its working. I tend to go for just about 60-75min total mash time including ramps. I do tend ot rest at a higher temp than most people here do. My standard is 67-68.

I was resting for 15-20 mins at the 55-56 level, but I do think that was making my beer too thin, so I have cut the P rest down to 5Mins or less and I am happy. Feel that I am getting the best of both worlds.

Standard for me would be to aim for an initial temperature of 56, get my mash well stirred and settled, then if all that has taken more than a minute or two, start my ramp to sach rest almost immediately. Straight up to my sweet zone of 67-68 or if I am looking for a dryer finish, I'll pause at 62-63 for a while on the way.

My caveat is... that I am using mega brewer malt as my base malt. So the stuff is mostly schooner with a bit of gairdner. Its my understanding that schooner is notorious for stability in its fermentability profile even with quite a bit of variance in mash temps. So what I am doing might well have a more drastic effect if I was using a different malt. Mind you, I don't change a lot if I decide to make something a bit special and go with a nice imported malt... so maybe not.

Thirsty

 

[phonos]

Thanks for that info thirsty. I did a pilsner on tuesday with joe white malt and included a 10-15min protein rest at 55C and was wondering if i was going to end up with pure blonde. What a waste if 140g of saaz flowers if i did!

 

[goatherder]

With 140g of saaz flowers, I think you'll be OK Phonos.

 

[SJW]

Steve, do you brew any particular beer quite regularly? Perhaps trial a few different mashing systems to find out what works best. Although, then there's always the fact that different ingredients will work better with different mashes.

Well the industry std. around here is anything that is German and Lager. Its just an observation that with 3 protein rest lagers in a row the head RETENTION is crap. The head from the tap even with low carbonation is very very good but just disappears before the end of the beer.
From what all the books say I did do the wrong thing with the malt I was using. The protein rests would have been closer to 50 deg C and all for 30mins. Its not that big a deal but I might do the next few without a protein rest and decoct off for the mash out.

At the end of the day you need to trust the maltster.

very true. I guess have just proved what all the text book says.

 

[blackbock]

Well the industry std. around here is anything that is German and Lager. Its just an observation that with 3 protein rest lagers in a row the head RETENTION is crap.

It's great that you're still persevering with the Lagers Steve, even if you're changing mash schedules :icon_cheers:

Too many brewers on here do nothing but stinky ales.

 

[Stuster]

Too many brewers on here do nothing but stinky ales.

Right. Outside.

 

[blackbock]

I knew that would get the juices flowing!

 

[bindi]

:

Too many brewers on here do nothing but stinky ales.
[/quote]


What ? :unsure: I have four lagers on tap [all nice] but I can't wait for one to blow so I can put on a stinky ALE. :lol:

Nice lagers but becoming as boring as bat sh$t [funny saying].

 

[JoeG]

This thread has got me thinking - I have been using a protein rest (around 52, 15min) as standard practice for the last 20 or so beers I've made. Without an overly scientific approach, the results seem worth it: slight increase in efficiancy, no problem with head retention & its helped with some haze issues I was having.

I remembered something I read in the bible according to Noonan, which prompted me to dig out my copy and find ity again. In chapter 10 on mashing, he talks about an alternate mash program better suited to modern well-modified malts (soluble nitrogin 37-40%):

A combined proteolysis/saccharification rest at 55C
Followed by a dextrinization rest at 70 - 72C

Has anybody tried a mash program like this? I'm thinking of giving it a go soon, along the line of:

mash-in prot/sach rest 56C 30min (???)
perform a decoction to boost to 72C 30min (???)
mash-out with boiling infusion 77C 15min

Noonan didn't really go in to detail with step times and the like for this program - so I'm really looking for advice from anyone who's tried something similar.

Cheers

 

[Thirsty Boy]

pretty damn close to the mash schedule I described above - so yes. But if you are decocting or infusing hot water, rather than changing temp by an application of heat via a HERMS/RIMS/Direct Heat - then your step will be instantaneous and the wort will spend no time at temps between 56 & 72... so I would be tempted to drop that dextrination rest down a degree or two.

Perhaps 56 - 68/70 - then 77

depends if Noonan was talking about a "step" change versus a "ramp" change

but thats just me guessing based on my mash schedule

Thirsty

 

[JoeG]

pretty damn close to the mash schedule I described above - so yes. But if you are decocting or infusing hot water, rather than changing temp by an application of heat via a HERMS/RIMS/Direct Heat - then your step will be instantaneous and the wort will spend no time at temps between 56 & 72... so I would be tempted to drop that dextrination rest down a degree or two.

Perhaps 56 - 68/70 - then 77

depends if Noonan was talking about a "step" change versus a "ramp" change

but thats just me guessing based on my mash schedule

Thirsty

Thanks Thirsty - I note you use a very short rest at 56C. I was planning 30 min at 56 and 30 min at dex temp - do you think I would run the risk of ripping out too much body by extending the lower temp rest? My thinking is, if its a combined proteolysis/saccharification rest, then I should give it a little time to convert.

I really should just suck-it and see, and find out for myself - but I guess its worth asking if there's a mistake in there I can avoid.

 

[Julez]

pretty damn close to the mash schedule I described above - so yes. But if you are decocting or infusing hot water, rather than changing temp by an application of heat via a HERMS/RIMS/Direct Heat - then your step will be instantaneous and the wort will spend no time at temps between 56 & 72... so I would be tempted to drop that dextrination rest down a degree or two.

Perhaps 56 - 68/70 - then 77

depends if Noonan was talking about a "step" change versus a "ramp" change

but thats just me guessing based on my mash schedule

Thirsty

I'm going to give this a go myself, sounds like a good plan, Thirsty.

I read the same in Noonan about the 55/56 degree rest to replace the traditional 50-52 degree protein rest. I brewed a pretty traditional pilsener last weekend with a protein rest that I missed to the high side. I will be interested to see how it turns out, maybe it was a good mistake to make :icon_chickcheers:

 

[SJW]

Sounds like a plan boys. I might give it a go myself. After reading Noonans New brewing Lager Beers it does appear that if you are using well modified malts and have no problems with chill haze there is little reason to do a traditional protein rest. Esspecially when traditional protein rests were as long as 60mins.
I am doing a Schwarzbier on the weekend so there will be no chill haze issues here, but I might just try only adding in half of the mash in water first to bring the mash to 56 deg or so for 10 or 15 mins then add the rest in to bring up to 68 or so deg C.
I love challenging these thing we do just because that was the way we was taught.

Steve

 

[JoeG]

I gave the 56 - 70 - mash-out step mash a go last night. It was an Irish Red with an average sort of grain bill:
5kg with 80% base malt, 10% specialty malts and 10% flaked barley.

Mash was 56 - 30min
70 - 30min
75 - 15min (all steps done with boiling water infusions)

Mush too early for any real results. I will say the mash went smoothly, I got good efficiancy (85%) and excellent hot and cold break from the boil. Proof will be in the glass.

 

[pingdong]

It's great that you're still persevering with the Lagers Steve, even if you're changing mash schedules :icon_cheers:

Too many brewers on here do nothing but stinky ales.

I did a lager yesterday i stepped up my yeast and tipped off beer then rehidrated yesterday whil brewing. i cooled wort to 22. i wanted to pitch yeast a 8 so i put wort in fridge after a few hours it was at 18 so i pitched yeast. should i have waited till morning when wort was down to 8c. its down to 10 now. also when and what temp do i do secondary ferment and then when do i cool to lager?

Thanks pm me if its off topic please

Matt

 

[Punkal]

Mad Matt

It depends on what yeast you used, I think 12-15 is the recommended pitching temp for most lagers and then 8-12 for fermentation but pitching at 8-12 is ok too...
Now I cant say if 22 would have killed off your yeast its on the hot side for lager but i am not a expert, i use Nottingham when i want to pretend to make a lager h34r:

 

[Hogan]

I did a lager yesterday i stepped up my yeast and tipped off beer then rehidrated yesterday whil brewing. i cooled wort to 22. i wanted to pitch yeast a 8 so i put wort in fridge after a few hours it was at 18 so i pitched yeast. should i have waited till morning when wort was down to 8c. its down to 10 now. also when and what temp do i do secondary ferment and then when do i cool to lager?

Thanks pm me if its off topic please

Matt

Matt - I previously pitched my lager yeast (liquid) at 18c and brought it down to the ferment temp. No real problems as Whitelabs say that you will not bring out any bad flavours if dropping temp in first 8 hours. Having said that I now pitch at 8c and let it rise to 10c for fermentation.

I don't do a secondary but rack the beer off the yeast at completion of fermentatation. Then drop the temp to 0c over 24 hours and cold condition.


Cheers, Hoges.

 

[Bribie G]

This is why we need a dedicated Yeast subforum to discuss these things.

I just made my first real standard Nazi method BoPils for a couple of years. I made up a Wyeast Urquell starter at room temperature as recommended until it was fermenting nicely. I no chill and had a cube of wort already at lager temperature but let it drift up to around 12. So as not to shock the yeast on pitching the starter I gradually reduced the starter to around 15 over a few hours then pitched and drifted the beer down to 10.5 overnight, where it will for 2 weeks clingwrapped.

Then I'll run into cube and lager in the cold fridge till end of April.

Edit: at end of primary I'll raise to around 13 for a few days for the D rest.

 

[speedie]

typical brew day for cold fermenting would be to redydrate yeast at 25 degrees go through mashing regime which is always three stepped then mash out @ 80
sparge boil then run through chiller which uses tap water and is generally around 25 degrees
this would put my wort around that mark into the fermenter
pitch yeast then put into coolroom @ 8-12 degrees let the wort cool down overnight and have never had any problems

yeast of preferance would be 34-70 damn fine stuff
a pro brewer mate of mine ferments hes 3000 litre brews @ 6 degrees with this yeast


mash profile dough in @ 45 rest for 15 min raise to 52 15 min rest raise to between 63-68 depending on preferance
raise to 80 then transfer and sparge
speedie