No Chill Versus Chill?

[manticle]

I do.
Can't see why you wouldn't.

I whirlpool after a hot wort stand for 20 minutes, then let sit another 20. Late additions for me are in the whirlpool but I'm not generally hop crazy. Cube additions work well for high hop flavour.

 

[UsernameTaken]

Thanks guys, but just to clarify, how long would you suggest whirlpooling when cube hopping?

Cheers,
UNT

 

[contrarian]

The big factor in hop flavour and aroma is the exposure to wort of a particular temperature for a particular time which dictates how many bitterness units you get from an addition.

This is also not a linear relationship so conversion happens much more quickly at boiling than it does at say 90C.

So by monitoring the temperature as it drops and adding hops along the way you can get a lot of flavour and aroma and still transfer to a cube at 80C which is fine for pasteurizing the cube.

I have always no chilled and currently have a pale ale on tap that only has a 60 minute and 15 minute addition, it was going to be a flame out addition but got added early and it has plenty of hop flavour and aroma.

Even with chilling you really need to know people's exact post book process to be able to replicate what they do. For example do people start their chiller immediately after flame out or do they wait a period of time first? With their chilling method how quickly does the temperature drop to below 80C etc.

The only way to get it right is to try different things and see what works best for you.

 

[btrots87]

Thanks guys, but just to clarify, how long would you suggest whirlpooling when cube hopping?

Cheers,
UNT

If you're not adding hops to the whirlpool then the timing isn't as critical. I would just get a good stir going and leave it until the break material has settled out into a nice cone.

Probably 10 to 15 minutes to settle out at a guess.

 

[manticle]

Thanks guys, but just to clarify, how long would you suggest whirlpooling when cube hopping?

Cheers,
UNT

My process would be the same

 

[Moad]

Late on this one but +1 for no chilling, I tried it once and was converted.

For me I brew a few large batches less often and then ferment at my leisure. It is a convenience and time issue more than anything else, I have found no deterioration in quality after accounting for hop differences. I cube and dry hop for Pales, have not done an IPA yet.

 

[GalBrew]

But don't I still need to whirlpool to seperate some crud from the wort before transferring to the cube?

Cheers,
UNT

Not necessarily as all the crud will settle out and fall to the bottom of the cube, all the more if you are cube hopping. You can then siphon the wort out of the cube into the fermenter, leaving break material and hops behind.

 

[Bribie G]

But don't I still need to whirlpool to seperate some crud from the wort before transferring to the cube?

Cheers,
UNT

Depending on what brewing method you are using you shouldn't have much crud anyway.
For example I do full volume BIAB in an urn and this is my typical trub:



Obviously that's after draining to cubes, so I only get clear runnings into the cube, then run off the rest into a jug and let it settle.
The clear wort can then be poured off into a pan and boiled, either with the late hops as posted by others, or used for starters.

I've put three steps into practice to reduce trub to a minimum.

• Slow hoisting of bag to form grain bed
• Hop "sock" to remove nearly all the solid hop material after the boil.
• Final "flash" boil with lid on, to sterilise the headspace when, as a bonus, most of the trub rises with the boil then sticks itself to the upper sides of the urn, just before it tries to froth out of the lid. This step also allows the wort to cool safely to below 80 degrees for cubing. You can see the trub ring in this photo, most of any remaining hop solids also deposit here.

I only do this when I intend to pitch the next day as, of course, 80 degree wort isn't going to completely sterilise a cube.
On the other hand with proper cube cleaning and sanitation this shouldn't be a worry in practice, my last infected cube was over 4 years ago.

 

[S.E]

You need to take the way back machine at a time we had a member called Darren.

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/9354-the-no-chiller-method/page-10?hl=botulism#entry122433

Enjoy.

Thanks. So the botulism war was mainly Darren on a safety crusade, what happened to Darren is he still on here under a different name by any chance?

The OTT safety concerns sound similar to some of the bizarre doom gloom and death theories posted in the carbing and conditioning in a cube thread. What was with all the cube hostility back then I wonder?

According to Ray Mills first post #38 in the botulism thread he first introduced AHB to no chill after being shown the method by Tim Thomas the brewer from Five islands Brewery at IBU club big brew day at his place.

I’m sure I heard that it was Scotty that was the first no chiller in the club but I may be wrong. Then again no one could ever remember what happened on big Ray brew days so it’s possible that Ray mixed up the details as he said Scotty was also there at the time.

Ray Mills also used a bruheat boiler one of the early BIAB boilers from the eighties but only used it as a mash tun with a false bottom no bag if I remember correctly. He had bought it second hand and didn’t know if it had been bought here new or had made its way over with someone from the UK.

I find it hard to believe that BIAB was not accepted and used in AU prior to AHB and internet.

 

[capsicum]

After reading this i haven't worried so much about trub: http://brulosophy.com/2015/03/22/the-impact-of-kettle-trub-part-2-exbeeriment-results/

Yes, his has cold break in it too and the beer is chilled, but I haven't seen much detriment by having some kettle trub in my ferment... Except that it takes up room.

Also be aware that if you're using plastic siphons or other equipment, the temperature of non chilled wort can be enough to seriously warp it. First time I no chilled I wrecked my auto siphon (the plunger type).

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

I find it hard to believe that BIAB was not accepted and used in AU prior to AHB and internet.

Its becasue they all got burnt at the stake

 

[billygoat]

Carbing in cubes or using them as casks for dispensing real ale is another old and simple HB method that is now popular but took a bit of flack from nay sayers and when the idea was first posted here http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/70056-carbingconditioning-in-a-cube-before-keg/


.

I'm glad you posted about the cubes SE.
But there were some silly reactions and as you say, nay sayers.
I have been using one for the last 6 weeks or so and it is great, much easier and less waste than my beer engines.

I have never used no chill as I don't have a need to but it does seem a good method and I have drank plenty of good beers from other no chillers.


Edit - Don't know how to rotate it.

 

[Bribie G]

Looks fine to me in my current alignment after eight pints.

 

[contrarian]

Depending on what brewing method you are using you shouldn't have much crud anyway.
For example I do full volume BIAB in an urn and this is my typical trub:

reducetrub 7.jpg

Obviously that's after draining to cubes, so I only get clear runnings into the cube, then run off the rest into a jug and let it settle.
The clear wort can then be poured off into a pan and boiled, either with the late hops as posted by others, or used for starters.

I've put three steps into practice to reduce trub to a minimum.

• Slow hoisting of bag to form grain bed
• Hop "sock" to remove nearly all the solid hop material after the boil.
• Final "flash" boil with lid on, to sterilise the headspace when, as a bonus, most of the trub rises with the boil then sticks itself to the upper sides of the urn, just before it tries to froth out of the lid. This step also allows the wort to cool safely to below 80 degrees for cubing. You can see the trub ring in this photo, most of any remaining hop solids also deposit here.

I only do this when I intend to pitch the next day as, of course, 80 degree wort isn't going to completely sterilise a cube.
On the other hand with proper cube cleaning and sanitation this shouldn't be a worry in practice, my last infected cube was over 4 years ago.

The best you can hope for when transferring hot wort to a cube is pasteurization which only takes 15 seconds at 72C and much shorter times at higher temperatures.

For sterilization you need dry heat of 170C for one hour.

I don't know anyone who would only count on heat to sanitize cubes and a good wash and a no rinse sanitizer but getting it into the cube near boiling doesn't make that big a difference.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

The best you can hope for when transferring hot wort to a cube is pasteurization which only takes 15 seconds at 72C and much shorter times at higher temperatures.

For sterilization you need dry heat of 170C for one hour.

I don't know anyone who would only count on heat to sanitize cubes and a good wash and a no rinse sanitizer but getting it into the cube near boiling doesn't make that big a difference.

You just need Star-San and nothing else

 

[Rocker1986]

I take that Brulosophy trub experiment with a grain of salt personally. He drinks the beer within a month, probably not long enough for any potential issues to arise from dumping a heap of kettle trub into the fermenter, or perhaps not to the point of being detectable in the taste.

I don't whirlpool my wort but I do let it sit still for about 20 minutes after flameout before transferring it so that as much kettle trub as is physically possible can be left behind in a non filtered brewery. If it gets in the cube it's likely to end up in the fermenter as well since it all gets stirred up when the cube is picked up to tip into the fermenter. Obviously a very small amount gets in, which I'm not concerned about, but there's no way I'm gonna go and tip litres of the shit in there.

I've never cleaned my cubes with anything but a hot water rinse and periodic soaking in sodium perc. It's not best practice and I'm not claiming it to be but I've never had an infected cube in 4 and a half years, aside from one that had a leaky tap seal - funnily enough that cube was the only one I ever used Starsan in as well.

 

[Lionman]

But don't I still need to whirlpool to seperate some crud from the wort before transferring to the cube?

Cheers,
UNT

I never whirlpool and I don't have any issues. I usually use whirlfloc and I get cold break minutes after the heat is off. I get clear running into the cube, leaving behind the settled proteins. I filter the wort between the cube and fermenter, most because of cube additions and get clean wort in the fermenter and clean yeast cakes.

 

[Bribie G]

Another tip with no chill is, instead of buying a 20 or 25 Litre, just get two 10L jobs from Bunnings. They actually hold more like 11 litres once they have been used a few times, and if filled to the max, so are just the job for a "standard" size brew.

They cool far quicker (surface to volume ratio) and are a lot easier to shift around.

I use mine to transport tank water to the urn, then after a quick starsan they sit there patiently waiting for wort.

They aren't always as airtight as the FWK sized ones, but that's no problem as I nearly always pitch within 24 hours.
.

 

[Stouter]

I had a problem with lids on the Bunnings containers, but that was with a 20L cube and trying to get a tight seal, just kept spinning.

Before transferring from the urn I'll usually leave it to sit for anywhere as long as a couple of hours with some cling wrap on top held in place by the lid. Advice someone gave me from their own method was that they even leave it sitting overnight like that without issues, though I've not done that yet because I prefer to have everything finished and cleaned the same day.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

I remember some of the old posts about getting scalded inner thigh's and legs from holding them whilst screwing the cap on

Someone even suggested cowboy chaps...