New Brewery Build

[Moad]

Hi all,

I currently run a more beer gas fired 3v HERMS rig. I am clearing out a section under the house, concreting the floor and turning into a dedicated brew space. This will be a long term project and as a part of the project I would like to build a new electric brewery to replace my existing gas rig (which will go up for sale in the next few months).

I would like to use the collective knowledge of this great forum and design then build my new brewery. Some features I would really like:

• Hard plumped water (both hot and cold, pipes run through the brew area)
• Exhaust fan to pull steam out from the brew space
• No removable hoses, ie - hard plump pipes into the stand with valves to control flow
• Automation where possible - BCS? control valves and pumps possible?
• Temp controlled fermentor if possible (100L)
• 150L capacity kettle - currently run 100L kettle
• Electric or natural gas however ventilation would be an issue with gas.

If pipes can be plumbed it should mean less spillage which means I should be able to get away with steel stand rather than stainless (rust protected).

is 3v herms the best option here? is 4v better?

I'm mindful of budget but it isn't a priority, I want something that will meet my capacity requirements and last 10 years and if it means I have to wait another 6 months to save then so be it.

Any advice, ideas or designs would be much appreciated. I'll keep this thread to track any progress I make on the brew area and brew rig itself.

Cheers,

Nick.

 

[mofox1]

A designated wet area with in floor drain.... damn this would have been handy.

 

[TheWiggman]

Got some photos of the space or a hand drawn schematic? Will make it much easier to give worthwhile feedback.

 

[Alex.Tas]

My brew area is currently under my house too.
I thought about an extraction fan, but decided against it as i just cut the stem of a pedestal fan down and hung it from the ceiling, so that it blows air across the top of the boil kettle. My kettle is only 2m from the open door and it is 40L capacity, so I imagine you would have a greater steam output than I do. Could be an option never the less and it saves a lot of messing around.

Good lighting is also handy. I upgraded mine a while ago and it makes things a lot easier. Throw in a few extra power points too when you have your sparky in.

A designated wet area with in floor drain.... damn this would have been handy.

This would also be brilliant, if it is reasonably achievable.

 

[sponge]

I'd have my hand up for electric over gas. After using both for a few years, I just like the set-and-forget of the electric and allows for more automation. I never felt comfortable leaving the kettle to boil on the gas without me being there to monitor.

What is the difference between 3V HERMS and 4V? HERMS is usually 4V anyways (HLT, Mash tun, kettle, HEX), unless you have the herms coil/HEX in the HLT, but it is much better having a small volume HEX in a separate vessel for ramp times and allows more flexibility with how you use your HLT.

 

[mb-squared]

an in-floor drain would be huge. but if you are under your house, that's probably going to be tricky? I have an electric 3V Herms setup with hard plumbed water (just cold), exhaust fan and relatively hard-plumbed lines (but I use silicone hoses as it allows me some flexibility if/when needed). I'd say the biggest challenge will be getting that exhaust fan plumbed in and getting enough power to the brewery. I have 2 32A circuits which allows me to run both of my 5500W elements simultaneously. I HIGHLY recommend this type of setup. While fly sparging, I can get my BK started while still being able to maintain the temps in my HLT, for example. And it seems that I always find myself taking advantage of the fact that I can run both elements simultaneously.

I've posted a few pics of my setup here: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/64130-show-us-your-brew-cave/page-23#entry1281774

 

[Camo6]

Wow, awesome project Nick.

Personally I'd go all electric with a 4v setup. Then there's no worries about running a burner in a confined space. Like mentioned above you'll run an extra element for 4v but these won't all run at the same time anyway unless you're doing back to back 100l batches!
What are you thinking in terms of power supply? Being below your house it shouldn't be too expensive to run a couple of decent circuits if not already available.
Progression pics a must!

 

[MastersBrewery]

Ultimate set up in my mind would be to use a continuous hot water system for HLT and possibly for the herms set up(or nevs hermit). Strike water done in 10 minutes! And probably kettles from stout tanks; all tri clover fittings simplify strip down and clean. Definitely dedicated 50 amp+ circuit in the brew space. Wet area floor drain would be a big big bonus.

 

[mofox1]

This is giving me awful/awesome ideas for the brewery in the next house. Ventilation, lights, plumbed water, B2B batches... golly.

As for the 3v/4v question, I have my coil in my HLT - 3v works very well for me.

You can fit a shite load of coil in a HLT (+15m) so your output wort temp is essentially guaranteed to be exactly the same as the HLT temp, meaning you only need to control the temp of the HLT. I don't find the ramp times too bad... last batch took 16min to raise the HLT temp from 54°C to 67°C (13°C rise) during recirc.

That said, I built my control panel to be able to control a separate HX element for when I get bored and want a 4v setup. h34r:

 

[idzy]

Moad, what a great idea for a thread! Get an idea of everyones bucket lists and then do it, I like your thinking...

• Removable hoses, even if permanently plumbed will offer more flexibility
• Solid state relays for elements are huge and will allow elements to be 'tuned' to temperature you are trying to maintain. My system pulses elements 1000 times per second and adjusts pulses to suite. For examples 300 times a second will set the element to 30% power. Really good, particularly for HEX.

Some things I have done that helped massively:

• Plumbed hot/cold taps next to system with instantaneous
• Plumbed electronic solenoids for hot and cold in addition to taps, used for HLT and Counter Flow Chiller activated by Panel.
• Hose connection, with long hose and nozzle, that can fit to hot and cold (been amazing)

Plans:

• Extraction fan/rangehood
• Floor drain (will help heaps with my hose outs)
• Tiled/laminated floor for ease of cleaning - currently cement sheet and decking
• SS Trolley with 100 degree tilting pot stands for cleaning grain/trub from MLT/Kettle (have used before and is priceless)

Hope this helps and good luck with the build.

 

[MastersBrewery]

Have to agree with idzy tippy dump would have to figure into any MT over 50L (my back is screwed... wasn't 2 years ago), I've seen one that was winch driven, that would be awesome!

 

[Moad]

Thanks guys some awesome ideas already.

I run herms coil in hlt now and ramp times are pretty slow but I suspect that is due to the coil being too small.

The guy next door built the house so I'm waiting for him to come and tell me what needs to be done to make sure the house won't fall over when I start digging. If it is OK to dig I'll be starting very soon, pics to come soon. The space is pretty much 6m x 3m it is close to circuit board, hot water tank and cold/hot water pipes run through.

In floor drain is possible but not sure about getting it into waste or if that is even required. There is a little door to outside that I'll rig up to get the grain/waste out. The whole area will be a wet area and I'll have a grain storage and milling area just outside. Just need to make sure the drain will work out.

So early days but happy I posted, I'll start with photos of the space once I talk to the guy next door. I need to research benefits of 4v over 3v.

Cheers fellas

 

[idzy]

I run herms coil in hlt now and ramp times are pretty slow but I suspect that is due to the coil being too small.

Ramp times will be based on the temp of the HLT water. If the HLT water is ramping slowly, your coil will perform the same. However if you ramp your HLT water quickly, but then your MLT temp takes ages, you could be right... I would tip the former, because heating a bunch of water takes time, at least for me it does.

 

[Moad]

Even with a 10 degree difference it takes about 3 minutes per degree for MT to heat up. I end up direct firing it to give it a boost. Little bit unpredictable which bugs me

 

[Moad]

I've confirmed the brew space can be cleared, work begins in a few weeks.

First step is to remove a shelf that is in there which will take a day to dismantle.

Some ideas for the rig...

Bottom draining vessels to clean in place.
Agitated MT.
Bcs-460 to control and automate the brewery (research required).
Motorised ball valves.



Pulley to remove spent grain from the brewery. Could also be used to get kegs in and out to save my back.

I will be looking to create a separate fermentation room if space permits, using an old aircon, really just to counter the heat generated from fermentation...it would be 12-14 degrees in there at the moment and probably max 18 in summer.

I'll be planning to minimise manual handling as much as possible to save the back.

Will post some pics of the area next weekend when I start moving stuff out.

 

[spog]

A decent sized window for ventilation and light.

 

[user 36151]

I wish i had a floor waste /hob type area to wash out in like a shower recess or grated floor

 

[Moad]

There is a good sized window that opens onto the neighbours fence...light will have to be artificial as it is under the house. A fan will be needed to move air around as well.

What a "grate" idea and easily doable, I could just slope the slab into the center and put a grate there. I just need to make sure I can get the drain pipe into waste somewhere.

Edit:Have done a little bit of research on 4v and it looks like that will remove the cons of the HERMS coil in the HLT.

Have posted in the HERMS thread to see about sizing it up.

If I am aiming to knock out 120Litres so I am thinking

150L BK
120L MT
100L HLT
HERMS not sure yet
Do these volumes look about right?

 

[husky]

.........
Some ideas for the rig...

Bottom draining vessels to clean in place.
Agitated MT.
Bcs-460 to control and automate the brewery (research required).
Motorised ball valves.
...........

Bottom draining vessels are the way to go, slight cone in the base so they are free draining. That's how I have made all mine and life is much easier.

Agitator MT sounds like overkill but good fun. Interested to see what you do here as I have done a bit of research into this myself for a future addition to my brewery. I have gone as far as wiring a VSD in the electrical panel ready for a drive of some sort. Are you thinking top or bottom mount agitator?

If you're prepared for a big learning curve and have the time and $$ I can highly recommend running a small PLC for brewery control. Endless flexibility and functionality. and very rewarding to see working! I have done a lot of learning in this area over the past few months and have one 99% up and running, happy to help out in this area if you go this path.

Motorised valves - I know ball valves are cheap however I deleted them all from my brewery years ago after seeing what builds up in the cavity behind the seals. An electronically actuated butterfly valve would be great here but I have had no such luck finding one small enough and wend manual butterflys over motorised ball valves.

Sounds like a great project!

 

[Moad]

The agitator is a bonus feature that will likely come later, definitely not a requirement. I hadn't really considered bottom mount, had a vision of top mounting an agitator.

Thanks for the tips on the ball valves, automation is a feature I am keen on but in the end it is about the beer so don't want to sacrifice on cleanliness etc. I'll do some research into this area.

Time is probably the biggest issue with the PLC, I have a few electrical engineer mates that would help out though. Will do a bit of reasearch here too.

With regards to automation and control, I had a vision of programming the brew and walking away to come back to chilled wort in the fermentor. I am realising I need to think exactly how I want brew day to go (do I actually want to fully automate) as it affects everything from the earliest part of design phase. I may dial it back to manual valves, manually filling HLT and MT, manually moving wort around or somewhere in between these two levels of automation.

Your rig looks great Husky, sounds like you are constantly improving it too!