New Brewery Build

[spog]

There is a good sized window that opens onto the neighbours fence...light will have to be artificial as it is under the house. A fan will be needed to move air around as well.

What a "grate" idea and easily doable, I could just slope the slab into the center and put a grate there. I just need to make sure I can get the drain pipe into waste somewhere.

Edit:Have done a little bit of research on 4v and it looks like that will remove the cons of the HERMS coil in the HLT.

Have posted in the HERMS thread to see about sizing it up.

If I am aiming to knock out 120Litres so I am thinking

150L BK
120L MT
100L HLT
HERMS not sure yet
Do these volumes look about right?

With the floor grate to save some money if you can't afford a plumber to hook it to the sewer, and of course not running shit loads of water and chemicals into the floor grate,dig a trench allowing for adequate fall in the pipe ( drainage) dig a large ish hole and as deep as you can , half fill it with 1/4 inch gravel then bung and elbow on the drain pipe and add a length of pipe to get the end of it down to gravel.
Then back fill with gravel around the drain pipe up to 200 mm or so from the top,lay some plastic over the gravel and back fill with dirt to keep any soil/ dirt being washed down to the gravel and blocking the drainage.
Run the drain out to the garden area it'll help keeping the garden green.

 

[MastersBrewery]

Auto fill wouldn't be overly difficult, flow meters would probably be more accurate than the average Chinese made measuring jugs most of us use. Though I have to say complete automation has it's draw backs, I spent a lot of time on the brewtroller forum when it was still a pup, in the end I think only 3 or 4 rigs ended up any where near set and forget. I've only see 3 full scale commercial breweries, Wayward being the most recent and most automated(not PLC), and the lads there will be running their bums off come brew day. Yeah PLC would probably make their day easier but only a little, everything being done by a controller should be being overlooked by a brewer, unless you like tipping beer, or breaking expensive kit; you check as each step starts and finishes. I usually watch some sport and play pool while "matho's controller" brews my beer right next to me.

I do like where your going with this and like you I've stuffed my back( spent most of last week without feeling in my foot); for the moment my project list is on hold till I get it sorted. Worse brew day now requires helpers for any lifting, so I'll be watching to see if you solve some things I might use down the track.

cheers
MB

 

[husky]

The agitator is a bonus feature that will likely come later, definitely not a requirement. I hadn't really considered bottom mount, had a vision of top mounting an agitator.

Thanks for the tips on the ball valves, automation is a feature I am keen on but in the end it is about the beer so don't want to sacrifice on cleanliness etc. I'll do some research into this area.

Time is probably the biggest issue with the PLC, I have a few electrical engineer mates that would help out though. Will do a bit of reasearch here too.

With regards to automation and control, I had a vision of programming the brew and walking away to come back to chilled wort in the fermentor. I am realising I need to think exactly how I want brew day to go (do I actually want to fully automate) as it affects everything from the earliest part of design phase. I may dial it back to manual valves, manually filling HLT and MT, manually moving wort around or somewhere in between these two levels of automation.

Your rig looks great Husky, sounds like you are constantly improving it too!

Likewise I want to add an agitator at a later stage just for fun, I prefer the under mount idea to keep grease etc from potentially falling in the brew but it is more work and more $$.
I rekon I spent about 150 hrs learning to set up and program my PLC, mostly nights and spread over quite a few months. That's going from knowing a minimal amount(basic ladder knowledge but never programmed before) to having a fairly detailed program and HMI setup that would do as much as any commercial brewery. Includes PID loops and temp ramp and hold, trends, lots of alarms and process monitoring.
Correct me if I'm wrong but there would not even be too many examples of commercial brewery's that utilise the level of automation you are chasing? It could definitely be done but it would be expensive and take most of the fun out of brew day? I think you still want to be watching and checking each step. Have you seen any brewery's that operate the way you want yours to?

 

[Mr B]

Can you get 1/2 inch butterfly valves? Had a bit of a search and no good

 

[husky]

I have never seen a hygienic butterfly valve smaller than 1". Ball valves are not hygienic if thats a priority. You can get a ball valve with a cip flush in the cavity but super expensive and not in 1/2".

 

[Moad]

Haven't seen that level, I'm a techie and I think it was a case of doing it as a challenge/project without too much thought. Now it is time to design I'm second guessing myself.

I think my priority should be making brew day easy rather than automatic. Turning a valve and filling vessells isn't hard to do, emptying 60kg grain with a swinging MT will make life a hell of a lot easier. This is the reason I started this threadthread, collective wisdom come at me.

I was thinking I could control the fill with an adjustable float switch easy enough too.

I'm leaning towards the bcs now, seems easy enough to get up and running with a semi automated system.

 

[Mr B]

I have never seen a hygienic butterfly valve smaller than 1". Ball valves are not hygienic if thats a priority. You can get a ball valve with a cip flush in the cavity but super expensive and not in 1/2".

Hmm yeah the ball valves require cleaning, had a few green bits come out of mine previously, it is what it is...


cheers

 

[Moad]

I've been looking into the automation side of things, BCS vs Brewtroller vs PID vs PLC.

my concern is if I design a brewery around a BCS or Brewtroller and it goes bang, I will have to completely rebuild it with PID's etc if they are no longer available.

I'm now thinking I will take it right back to PID manual control along the lines of the electric brewery. The remote control and monitoring that comes with the brewtroller and BCS would be great but in the end it is about making beer for me.

PLC's are over my head, I don't really have the time to invest in setting one up. There are plenty of resources on the electric brewery and could be built using readily available generic parts.

Thoughts?

 

[husky]

Electric brewery style is good for KISS and you just want to make beer
PLC is good is you like playing with new toys and want endless functional possibilities. A PLC will also give you trends which it sounds like you wanted in your posts above. These are great for tracking exactly what the mash temperature profile is from brew to brew. Like most things it comes down to time and money.

 

[Moad]

I would like that stuff but PLC is a big time investment, or alot of favours to EE mates!

I could build with PIDs and add the PLC later to control right?

What advantage would PLC give me over the BCS?

 

[MastersBrewery]

Motorised valves can be used with just a switch, however there is no proportional control; that is they are either on or off. I will eventually head back down the 2/3/4V path again(shhh h34r: ) and I'd probably got PID's and the soak ramp model from Auber would be on the list.

 

[Moad]

I'm using the soak ramp on the 1v and am happy with it. Matho's/Lael's might have been a better option for a little extra $.

I wonder how reliable the BCS is and how long they will be around. I like the features my one concern is the durability and options if it died. PLC is too heavy on time required for me.

 

[mb-squared]

I'm using the soak ramp on the 1v and am happy with it. Matho's/Lael's might have been a better option for a little extra $.

I wonder how reliable the BCS is and how long they will be around. I like the features my one concern is the durability and options if it died. PLC is too heavy on time required for me.

I use a BCS-460 and find it to be a really good piece of kit. Essentially 6 PIDs in one. As far as reliability goes, I've never had a problem with mine. In terms of support, well, just received this email today!

----------------------------
This message is announcing the final release version of the 4.0 firmware.
This is production ready firmware ready to be used on any existing BCS
device.
Firmware download and additional information is available on the forum:
http://forum.embeddedcc.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2730
Please see the new user manual available at: http://docs.embeddedcc.com/
The 4.0 firmware is a complete rewrite from the 3.x series firmware. The
major differences are:
- Totally redesigned responsive UI
- REST / JSON based API to make developing for the BCS much easier
- Some functionality has been moved out of the firmware to utility
application suite
- Data Logging re-imagined to make it easier for 3rd party logging
applications to log data, but on-device logging is more minimal
- No Manual Mode or HMI. HMI is planned for a future release, at this time
there is no plan for Manual Mode to return.
Regards,
The BCS Team



seems to me that they are active and expanding. but no one can be 100% sure I guess...

 

[Moad]

Looks that way, thanks for the post.

Would be almost cheaper to go with the BCS than to buy the ramp/soak and a couple of non ramp/soak PIDs.

BCS looking good again. I may need to ask a mod to tidy up this post once I make my mind up haha

I was thinking I could put an adjustable (manually) float switch on the HLT and MT to control fill levels. I am guessing a dedicated HERMS vessel would just stay full?

 

[Moad]

Ok so I think I am settled on the BCS, I can source a spare further down the track if they look like they might dissapear.

I had no idea how much is involved in designing a HERMS system... HEX size, process flow, probe placement etc.

Looks like I'll be getting familiar with the HERMS thread over the next week or two.

 

[cke11y]

I had similar thoughts about PLCs (well commercial controllers which are just PLCs). If it helps you further, I believe there will always be a brew controller on the market. It may not be the one you had before, but shouldn't take too much to alter your panel to suit another controller!

I went with brewpi. It's pretty great and very easy to wire. Software a bit to be desired for now. But will get good quickly.

Tri clamp! I have automated valves on water side of brewery and tri clamp (and butterfly valves) everything that touches wort. I would definitely look at stout kettles. Thinking I'll get one of their bottom draining models next.

 

[S.E]

With the floor grate to save some money if you can't afford a plumber to hook it to the sewer, and of course not running shit loads of water and chemicals into the floor grate,dig a trench allowing for adequate fall in the pipe ( drainage) dig a large ish hole and as deep as you can , half fill it with 1/4 inch gravel then bung and elbow on the drain pipe and add a length of pipe to get the end of it down to gravel.
Then back fill with gravel around the drain pipe up to 200 mm or so from the top,lay some plastic over the gravel and back fill with dirt to keep any soil/ dirt being washed down to the gravel and blocking the drainage.
Run the drain out to the garden area it'll help keeping the garden green.

Reading through this thread and regarding the floor drainage this is more or less what I was going to suggest.

I would dig a soakaway pit about 1 square metre fill it with old bricks or rubble and run the drain into it. Then cover the top with gravel and a sheet of plastic and level it off with 300 cm soil.

If it is difficult to get a fall into a sewer or soakaway pit how about building a sump into your floor and using a submersible pump?

 

[Moad]

I use a submersible pump to pump water outout of the area (from a hole I dug) now. I was planning to dig a drain out anyway so will look at what is there and what I can do with it once I start digging. Could setup some kind of catchment for grain and yeast etc and just empty it if it gets smelly.

Ideally I'll be able to go straight into waste but there are definitely options

 

[jimmy_jangles]

i don't really have much to offer in the way of what gear to use for automation, but as an electrician in a coal mine in the last few years ( i'm not anymore tho) that was trying to run everything on automation, for **** sake do not just set and forget, no matter how good/reliable you think the gear is. Nothing ever runs perfect all the time and electric gear is just waiting for you to turn your back to bite you in the ass. Many a shift spent on a shovel digging out a conveyor belt that got buried in coal haha

 

[spog]

I use a submersible pump to pump water outout of the area (from a hole I dug) now. I was planning to dig a drain out anyway so will look at what is there and what I can do with it once I start digging. Could setup some kind of catchment for grain and yeast etc and just empty it if it gets smelly.
Ideally I'll be able to go straight into waste but there are definitely options

Yep a sump built to hold for example a cut down bucket that will capture. any solids swept or washed into the sump,and an over flow pipe set slightly higher than the top of the sump to allow for the water.
As for any of the solids in the sump just dig a hole in the garden and dump the solids then cover over with soil.
Good for the garden.