Move To All Grain For Thirty Bucks

[barneyb]

Pay attention yoy unruley *******, he actually did tell us too turn the element off..read it again

"This post has been edited by Nick JD: Oct 27 2009, 07:29 PM"

 

[Nick JD]

Pay attention yoy unruley *******, he actually did tell us too turn the element off..read it again

I edited it after he asked me to.

 

[Nick JD]

Would extract brews benefit from whirlflock or are the proteins already removed from commercially available extract?

I think the extract is pretty much just a mash that's been boiled until the DMS has gone ... and then vacuum evaporated (for the liquid extract) or sprayed finely into dry air to crystalise (for the dry extract). Pretty sure they would have removed all the proteins before they vacuum evaporated or sprayed it.

EDIT: My understanding is you want to remove most of the proteins, but not every last drop. Adding whirlfloc to extract brews might affect it in a bad way. Just guessing though.

 

[husky]

Planning to do an AG DSGA over the long weekend, reading the recipe it calls for 78 degrees mash out. Is this the temp of the water used to sparge or do you bring the temp up to 78 after the 60 mins of steeping? (not 100% sure of all the terminology there)

 

[barneyb]

I had the same question, I actually thought that the mash out was the temp of the wort when you'd finished your mash (hint: its not!).

Ill let ThirstyBoy explain it:

I think that an actual mashout is important for BIAB - ie you raise your temperature after the main mash period is over, up to 74-78C. In my experience this will significantly increase your efficiency and will also help your beers to not be too dry.. which I find is a mild issue with BIAB beers. You put on your heat and stir stir stir while constantly taking temperature readings. I suggest you try to take about 10 minutes to raise your temperature up to 76C - let it rest there for a few minutes and then pull out your bag.

 

[RdeVjun]

I'm not sure about that interpretation barneyb?
There is a bit of confusion unless we know exactly which heating method is being used. My understanding is that if dunk sparge/ mashout takes place as one step by adding hot sparge water, then we need to add some near- boiling water to get the mash to settle at that mashout temperature. However, if directly heating the mash tun/ kettle to mashout, 78C is the target temperature. Either way, the mashout step takes place at 78C.
The amounts of water I use for sparged BIAB are about 4L/kg of grain for mashing and 2L/kg of sparge/ mashout. Seems to work quite well with very respectable efficiencies, I'll also add a pinch of citric acid to the sparge water.

Hope this helps! :icon_cheers:

Edit: Clarity.

 

[themonkeysback]

Whirlfloc is fishguts (I think).

Not fishguts - it is refined irish moss (seaweed)

 

[MarkBastard]

Pay attention yoy unruley *******, he actually did tell us too turn the element off..read it again

neck up

 

[MarkBastard]

Guys I wouldn't worry too much about the mash out.

Just do your dunk sparge at mash out temperatures. So heat the dunk sparge water to 78 degrees or whatever, then dump your bag in and make sure you stir it nicely.

From what I understand the mash-out is to stop the mash process and also to thin out some of the sugars so they wash off your grain more easily. It's purely there to add some efficiency.

Your main pot in the mean time is being brought up to the boil, and will get to mash out temps itself on the way up there. So for BIAB it's more about using the correct temperature to 'wash' the grains.

That said, you don't have to do any of this. Keep that in mind. It's optional. You can just squeeze the bag really well. Dunk sparging is just to get some more of those sugars out that's all.

Personally, I used to dunk sparge when doing stove top brews because it's so damn easy. You can use a kettle to make the boiling water and then add some cold water to it to make it the right temperature, and chuck it all in any old kitchen pot. Too easy.

I don't do it anymore with my urn because I can't be bothered. I get in the high 60's efficiency wise with my urn. I used to get about 75% with dunk sparging on the stove top. The difference is a just a small amount of money in terms of grain cost vs your time and effort.

 

[marksy]

I'm not sure about that interpretation barneyb?
There is a bit of confusion unless we know exactly which heating method is being used. My understanding is that if dunk sparge/ mashout takes place as one step by adding hot sparge water, then we need to add some near- boiling water to get the mash to settle at that mashout temperature. However, if directly heating the mash tun/ kettle to mashout, 78C is the target temperature. Either way, the mashout step takes place at 78C.
The amounts of water I use for sparged BIAB are about 4L/kg of grain for mashing and 2L/kg of sparge/ mashout. Seems to work quite well with very respectable efficiencies, I'll also add a pinch of citric acid to the sparge water.

Hope this helps! :icon_cheers:

Edit: Clarity.

How much citric acid do you add to the sparge water? This is to lower the pH level of the water yeah?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

People aren't reading what I write carefully enough - When I talk about mash out (for BIAB) I always talk about stirring constantly and raising to the mash out temperature over a period of time by turning on your heat source - I certainly did in the post to which Barneyb refers.

The stirring and raising slowly to 76-78 is an integral part. It has to do with final gelatinisation and dextrinisation of starches.

Certainly simply getting the mash up to 76-78 - even if you do it instantly via an infusion (or by dunking) - is going to be a bit better than just pulling the bag out at your main mash temp... but the significant difference will come with the stirred ramp. Better efficiency, a slight improvement in body and a mild chance of improvement in clarity.

You can still sparge after that (if you must) - but if you are going to bother with raising to a mashout... stir it up to a mash out. Otherwise save yourself the effort.

 

[BjornJ]

TB,
thanks for clearing that up.

I BIAB and always do a mash-out by turning the element in my 40 litre urn back on.
I then stir once or twice not to burn anything during the 15 min it takes to get to 76-78 degrees, then cover it again and leave for 15 mins.
( I have a steel colander over the element)

I wasn't aware of that I should stir while heating, but will do that from now on.

Is it right to then leave it at the mash-out temp for 15 mins before removing the bag or can I remove it straight away when hitting this temp?


(I also sparge by placing the grain bag in a small 15 litre fermenter and folding the bag out over the fermenter top. Then heating water in the tea kettle to 76-78 degrees and pouring this water over the grains. I do 3-4 tea kettles this way, draining wort from the fermenter tap and pouring into the urn before starting the boil. This way I get a bit more volume and gravity points in the kettle and stop sparging well before the wort gravity hits 1.010)

thanks
Bjorn

 

[Thirsty Boy]

TB,
thanks for clearing that up.

I BIAB and always do a mash-out by turning the element in my 40 litre urn back on.
I then stir once or twice not to burn anything during the 15 min it takes to get to 76-78 degrees, then cover it again and leave for 15 mins.
( I have a steel colander over the element)

I wasn't aware of that I should stir while heating, but will do that from now on.

Is it right to then leave it at the mash-out temp for 15 mins before removing the bag or can I remove it straight away when hitting this temp?


(I also sparge by placing the grain bag in a small 15 litre fermenter and folding the bag out over the fermenter top. Then heating water in the tea kettle to 76-78 degrees and pouring this water over the grains. I do 3-4 tea kettles this way, draining wort from the fermenter tap and pouring into the urn before starting the boil. This way I get a bit more volume and gravity points in the kettle and stop sparging well before the wort gravity hits 1.010)

thanks
Bjorn

If you don't stir constantly, then yes, I would let it rest for a little while (but then again I would never not stir constantly while adding direct heat) - But if you stir while you are heating the mash - then I don't think you need to worry about resting it at the end - just pull the bag. I don't even turn off the heat and pause... just gather up the bag and yoink... now you are raising your kettle wort to the boil.

If you insist on sparging - then as far as I am concerned, just pouring the water over the grain... qualifies as the "easiest" way to do it.. & has no other merit. If pouring a stream of water onto a pile of grain was an effective way to sparge... then a hell of a lot of people have wasted a hell of a lot of time designing complicated expensive mash tuns, lauter tuns and mash filters. Its not. Oh it'll rinse some sugar out.. but if you are going to do it, do it properly.

Get your grains submerged in sparge water, use a decent amount of sparge water (more than 1L pr kg of grist), stir the bloody stuff to release the sugars and dissolve them in the liquid. Use the fact that you have a bag to your advantage, rather than using the bag as a poor substitute for a false bottom.

Or just don't sparge at all - there simply is no need to sparge a BIAB in most cases.

Will all your water and grain fit in the pot?? If your answer to that is no... then fair enough, a separate sparge is a solution to the problem -- but if your answer is yes - then why? Why are you doing it? What is it that's making you go to the extra effort and trouble? Presumably you were attracted to BIAB in the first place because it didn't involve lots of different steps, and multiple bits of equipment - why would you then, without need, add back the very things who's lack is what makes BIAB sensible and attractive?

It's never made very much sense to me

Edit: This rant is somewhat out of place in this thread. In Nick's stovetop method, especially where you might be brewing at higher gravity - sparging probably is necessary. But if you have moved on to full size BIAB brewing off the stove - the ball game changes significantly.

 

[Nick JD]

What's all these "big words" mean? We needs to see more words like "bung" and "hole" and less words like, "dextrinizellygelitinspargeation". :chug: Teach them how to make beer, Master Sensei, the task is to reduce their brain cells.

 

[RdeVjun]

How much citric acid do you add to the sparge water? This is to lower the pH level of the water yeah?

Just a pinch! Honestly, it isn't much at all and I don't weigh it, say 1/8 tsp in 10L, just to make sure it is acidic. Our town water is quite variable (neutral to alkaline*), I don't always use town water but just to be sure it isn't alkaline I'll put the pinch of citric acid in. So, yes, to lower the pH of the sparge water just slightly.

* pH 7.2 to 7.7, Alkalinity 75mg/L as CaCO3. Source, but it is mixed with bore water post- treatment.

 

[prestonpaul]

I have been lurking here for a while and have just found this thread. I have only just started home brewing and have done a couple of fresh wert kits and currently have a ginger beer in the fermenter. I have found the fresh wert kits good but expensive (at least have some nice 17L cubes to use as small fermenters ) and leave me with a lot of beer to get through if I don't like the end result

Would it be unreasonable for someone with little experience to have a go at an all grain brew using this technique? I've read through the tutorial a couple of times and it dosn't seem to too dificult. I have already bought some swiss voile so just need a big pot and a thermometer so set up costs aren't too huge.

I would like to have a go at making a Porter using this recipe from the DB but have had to change a few of the malts due to availability from my LHBS. I downloaded Beersmith today and came up with this:

1800.00 gm Joe White Traditional Ale Malt (6.0 EBC)​

160.00 gm Joe White Chocolate Malt (700.0 EBC)​

80.00 gm Bairds Brown Malt (120.0 EBC)​

80.00 gm Oats, Flaked (2.0 EBC)​

60.00 gm Bairds Dark Crystal Malt (240.0 EBC)​

40.00 gm Carafa II (811.6 EBC)​

10.00 gm Target [11.00 %] (60 min) Hops 26.5 IBU​

4.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (10 min) Hops 1.7 IBU​

1 Pkgs Nottingham (Danstar #-) Yeast-Ale
​

​

Est Original Gravity: 1.045 SG

Est Final Gravity: 1.011 SG​

Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.42 %​

Bitterness: 28.2 IBU​

Now bearing in mind the above is based on a 9L batch size, this is the first time I have done any thing like this, and have never used Beersmith before how does that look? Any changes I should make or suggestions?

It might be a week or two before I actually get round to doing this but Ill report back and let you know how I go.

Paul.

 

[RdeVjun]

Would it be unreasonable for someone with little experience to have a go at an all grain brew using this technique?

No, not unreasonable at all- BIAB is pretty simple, if you've got two arms, two legs and a heartbeat, then I'm pretty sure it will work with ease! There's a few other guides about the place too, this one is for stovetop BIAB, but also consider the urn/ electric one and of course other interwebs resources.

I've read through the tutorial a couple of times and it dosn't seem to too dificult. I have already bought some swiss voile so just need a big pot and a thermometer so set up costs aren't too huge.

My advice is to get as big a stockpot as you can, the big double ewe 19L cheap stainless number is probably quite OK for that size recipe, but bigger (30L or more) would be even better*, which would mean you can do no- sparge, full- sized (23L) BIAB batches. Same with the thermometer- spend as much as you can on a good one.

Those FWK cubes will be handy, and as you're already aware you can use them as fermenters.

The recipe looks all right at a glance, perhaps maybe more oats though? Dunno for sure though, others may know more about using them or the recipe.

* Well, if truth be known I produced 16L of 1.086 in one of those 19 pots yesterday, with post- boil dilution at pitching that will be 86/50*16= about 25L of ESB in the fermenter plus 2.5L of trub losses (kettle- chilled). These numbers are routine for me. But that wasn't part of your question...

Edit: Clarity.

 

[MarkBastard]

I did another batch yesterday in my 40L Urn and can say if you have the money to buy an urn, it's a great way to brew. It's actually easier than the stove top. Beginners, don't think that you need to use the stove top as a form of training wheels. It's a good place to start but isn't mandatory. The only thing it really has going for it is lower start up costs.

 

[Nodrog]

As someone who did 3 kits and then tried a small BIAB brew with minimum setup costs:
Voile $10
17l stockpot $25
Gas Burner $15
Prices NZD

Just do it. it really is easy, although I've never done extracts or anything, I'm not really sure why people would bother, from what I've read its no easier than a small BIAB brew.

If I was doing it again I'd buy a bigger stockpot, but to go from 17L to anything bigger would have cost $80 or more.
my first brew is still in the FV, 6 days now, has got from 1050 to 1016 and had to try a bit last night, oh my F%^#cking word it tastes marvellous!

 

[MarkBastard]

although I've never done extracts or anything, I'm not really sure why people would bother, from what I've read its no easier than a small BIAB brew.

With extracts you typically only steep grains instead of mashing them. This is a fair bit easier in terms of effort and skill level as less can go wrong. You also will be typically steeping about a tenth of the grain bill you would have been mashing!

You can also do a quite small boil with a smaller pot, and you can boil for less time depending on hop additions.