Move To All Grain For Thirty Bucks

[husky]

There was no swiss voile available at spotlight so I got snow voile. Its 100% poly which from reading here is the main concern? Still has very fine holes so it should do the trick.
Had a look on ebay and there is swiss voile but its 100% cotton this would be no good?

 

[Bribie G]

This is such a simple idea that I suspect I may be missing something here, or maybe it's been discussed but I haven't followed this thread too closely....

Doing BIAB in a 40L urn ( I realise this is a bit off topic as this thread is discussing generally smaller batches, but anyhow....)

Mash with 10 litres less of initial liquor - thicker mash
At end of mash, tip a stockie with 10 litres of very hot liquor into the mash to bring it up to mid - late 70s
Stir - or pump with the paint agitator tool - like buggery
Let it sit for a wee while
Hoist Bag

In fact I'll do that with my Aussie SMASH I'm doing this afternoon and see how the temp control goes and report.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

This is such a simple idea that I suspect I may be missing something here, or maybe it's been discussed but I haven't followed this thread too closely....

Doing BIAB in a 40L urn ( I realise this is a bit off topic as this thread is discussing generally smaller batches, but anyhow....)

Mash with 10 litres less of initial liquor - thicker mash
At end of mash, tip a stockie with 10 litres of very hot liquor into the mash to bring it up to mid - late 70s
Stir - or pump with the paint agitator tool - like buggery
Let it sit for a wee while
Hoist Bag

In fact I'll do that with my Aussie SMASH I'm doing this afternoon and see how the temp control goes and report.

Course it'll work Bribie, just exactly like a non-biab brew with a Mashout infusion - but what's the purpose of wanting to do it?

 

[prestonpaul]

Thanks for the encouragement, Ill give it a go next week. I am keen to get an urn and really get in to BIAB but the cost is a bit prohibitive at the moment. For $20.00 I can get a 19L stock pot and do a few small batches to get my head around the whole process before I spend up big. The other reason I like the small batch idea is I am currently making beer faster than I can drink it and my wife keeps asking what I am going to do with it all This way I can produce a few different styles fairly quickly and not have huge amounts of beer I have to stash somewhere.

Thanks again.

Paul.

 

[Bribie G]

Course it'll work Bribie, just exactly like a non-biab brew with a Mashout infusion - but what's the purpose of wanting to do it?

Just to finish off any gelatinisation and dextrin formation etc as you said. Also to make the wort less sticky and get a bit more out. Or did I read your analysis wrong?

 

[BjornJ]

...

If you insist on sparging - then as far as I am concerned, just pouring the water over the grain... qualifies as the "easiest" way to do it.. & has no other merit. If pouring a stream of water onto a pile of grain was an effective way to sparge... then a hell of a lot of people have wasted a hell of a lot of time designing complicated expensive mash tuns, lauter tuns and mash filters. Its not. Oh it'll rinse some sugar out.. but if you are going to do it, do it properly.

Get your grains submerged in sparge water, use a decent amount of sparge water (more than 1L pr kg of grist), stir the bloody stuff to release the sugars and dissolve them in the liquid. Use the fact that you have a bag to your advantage, rather than using the bag as a poor substitute for a false bottom.

Or just don't sparge at all - there simply is no need to sparge a BIAB in most cases.

Will all your water and grain fit in the pot?? If your answer to that is no... then fair enough, a separate sparge is a solution to the problem -- but if your answer is yes - then why? Why are you doing it? What is it that's making you go to the extra effort and trouble? Presumably you were attracted to BIAB in the first place because it didn't involve lots of different steps, and multiple bits of equipment - why would you then, without need, add back the very things who's lack is what makes BIAB sensible and attractive?

It's never made very much sense to me

..

I am not a brewer, and truly understand that you know more about this than I, ThirstyBoy.

But I choose to believe there is a place for sparging when BIAB'ing.

I mash in about 4-5 litres/kg of grain.
I then sparge with at least 3 or 4 "tea kettle volumes" of 1.8 litres of water (so say 5 to 8 litres of water for 4-5 kg of grains).
I get sugar out of the grains in the form of wort rather than just throwing the grains out, I have the grains submerged in water for several minutes and of course stir before tapping the wort out through the tap of the fermenter.

Maybe I could have achieved the same mashing full-volume, but it seems to make sense to me to mash with water to grist ratios as mentioned by Palmer (link), BYO.com (link) rather than mashing in full volume.
It also (at least to me) seems to make sense to sparge/rinse the grains with more hot water after pulling the bag in order to increase the amount of sugar extracted rather than just ditching it. I don't squeeze and I don't do it excessively but still sparge, though

So I would think there is value in putting hot water on the grain bag one way or another, the method probably only decides how much more extract is extracted?

And after all, most of the fun here is fiddling with a new process to make the production of beer more brew-like and less clean-sanitise-mix-with-water-then-clean-again :lol:
That's why we like to add all these steps like finings, cold conditioning, yeast starters, whirlpooling, etc. To keep adding new tricks and techniques to our brewing. That in itself may make sparging a valuable process for us poor BIAB'ers as well, even if it had no "real" merit.

Sorry for going completely off-topic here Nick, guess I should have asked this question in a new thread.


thanks
Bjorn

 

[Nick JD]

Sorry for going completely off-topic here Nick, guess I should have asked this question in a new thread.

It's not "my" thread, Bjorn! It's a bit like a bushfire, I'm just the ******** who chucked a ciggy butt - now it's everyone's. :icon_cheers:

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I am not a brewer, and truly understand that you know more about this than I, ThirstyBoy.

But I choose to believe there is a place for sparging when BIAB'ing.

I mash in about 4-5 litres/kg of grain.
I then sparge with at least 3 or 4 "tea kettle volumes" of 1.8 litres of water (so say 5 to 8 litres of water for 4-5 kg of grains).
I get sugar out of the grains in the form of wort rather than just throwing the grains out, I have the grains submerged in water for several minutes and of course stir before tapping the wort out through the tap of the fermenter.

Maybe I could have achieved the same mashing full-volume, but it seems to make sense to me to mash with water to grist ratios as mentioned by Palmer (link), BYO.com (link) rather than mashing in full volume.
It also (at least to me) seems to make sense to sparge/rinse the grains with more hot water after pulling the bag in order to increase the amount of sugar extracted rather than just ditching it. I don't squeeze and I don't do it excessively but still sparge, though

So I would think there is value in putting hot water on the grain bag one way or another, the method probably only decides how much more extract is extracted?

And after all, most of the fun here is fiddling with a new process to make the production of beer more brew-like and less clean-sanitise-mix-with-water-then-clean-again :lol:
That's why we like to add all these steps like finings, cold conditioning, yeast starters, whirlpooling, etc. To keep adding new tricks and techniques to our brewing. That in itself may make sparging a valuable process for us poor BIAB'ers as well, even if it had no "real" merit.

Sorry for going completely off-topic here Nick, guess I should have asked this question in a new thread.


thanks
Bjorn

You have hit on the only decent reason to sparge a BIAB brew... because you want to. This is a hobby, so "because I want to" is the most important reason of all.

And - I mis-understood your sparging method in your previous post. From what you say here, you are essentially dunk sparging, and if you're going to sparge a BIAB. That's the way to do it.

As for mashing at lower rather higher L:G ratios and the relative merits thereof .. well, there has been a hell of a lot written about that in the primary "How to BIAB" thread - I'll let you look it up if you care to. Essentially its a non-issue. Higher L:G ratios wont hurt your beer in any way. Besides - at the L:G ratio you are using anyway... you are already well and truly into the territory that would be defined by those articles as "too high"

I don't quite understand the drive to BIAB and sparge. BIAB is a method designed from scratch to be no-sparge, to need only one pot, one heat source and have the simplest possible methodology... if you actually want to sparge, and don't mind using another heat source and another pot or kettle, and use a more complicated process... then there are perfectly good brewing methods that are designed for that - why not use them? They're better at it.

Still - like I said - hobby, so if you want to tack unnecessary bits onto a process, why the hell not? If you want to sparge a BIAB.... well if you dunk sparge then I cant see that it could hurt your beer in any significant way. I'm not even arguing that you shouldn't dunk sparge a BIAB, just that (beyond a few points of efficiency) there is no reason that you should.

I just want to make it plain (especially in this thread where there are quite a few brewers transitioning into AG via stovetop BIAB and who might not quite have a full handle on things yet) that if you move to full size BIAB brewing, or if you do small batches that are "proportionally" full size ....... Then there is no need to sparge a BIAB brew. So you can just leave it out of your plans and only stick it in later on if you develop an unhealthy urge to make your life more complicated than it needs to be.

I'm sorry to bang on about this in this thread - but I keep reading questions from potential BIAB brewers that are about sparging, wondering how to do it? wondering how they are going to manage it on their stove? or with their set-up? what sized other pot they'll need? should they dunk sparge or pour the water over the top? do they need to stir when they sparge or only before they pull the bag? - Not quite understanding how it works, wondering if they'll be able to get it right, thinking it all sounds great but perhaps a bit too hard..... hesitating to make the jump to AG because of those sorts of things.

The fact that they are thinking this about BIAB really really irks me - because that is exactly the stuff that BIAB was designed to get rid of - and which it does get rid of very effectively. Unless you decide to bugger about with it.

This thread, although I know it is in and of itself a thread that people have found very useful, is one of several threads that have managed to muddy the previously quite clear waters of the BIAB pool - so every now and again, when I think that the murkiness is getting a bit to impenetrable - I plan to jump up on my soapbox, have a rant, point the way back towards the shining light of the one true path.... then bugger off and let you people keep worshipping at your false idols (or paddling about in the muck... choose the one of my mixed metaphors that pleases you most)

So there

Thirsty

 

[prestonpaul]

I just want to make it plain (especially in this thread where there are quite a few brewers transitioning into AG via stovetop BIAB and who might not quite have a full handle on things yet) that if you move to full size BIAB brewing, or if you do small batches that are "proportionally" full size ....... Then there is no need to sparge a BIAB brew. So you can just leave it out of your plans and only stick it in later on if you develop an unhealthy urge to make your life more complicated than it needs to be.

So if understand you correctly (as one of those transitioning brewers) there is no need to do the sparge with the liter of water in Nick JD's procedure at the start of this thread? just give the bag a good squeeze and leave it at that?

Paul.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

fundamentally - yes that's right.

Nick is using it as a technique to squeeze a little more volume (and a few points of efficiency) out of a very small brew - as such it makes perfect sense. But the brew would work just as well without the sparge, it would just be a smaller batch. Or if the pot was 1L bigger.. put the extra litre in at the start and the sparge isn't needed.

On the stovetop the amount of effort is trivial.. you might as well sparge and get the extra volume - but you look at what Bjorn was describing for his technique. Transferring the bag, using (and having to clean) a different vessel, boiling 3-4 kettles of water, stirring, transferring the wort back to the kettle -- none of it all that hard, none of it "wrong" but equally, none of it needed.

Btw - if it seems I'm having a go at Bjorn.. I'm not, I've had one of his beers recently and if his technique results in that quality of beer, then it would be hard to say anything about it was a mistake.

 

[Nick JD]

Yeah - the only reason I did a "sparge" in this tutorial was that when the juices are dripping and being squeezed into the green bucket, it takes very little effort to bung a liter or so into the emptied bucket and re-squeeze the dunked/poured-over bag. But what comes out is not very sweet at all if you've squeezed well.

Myself, I don't even bother sparging with 3kg of grain and the 19L pot ... but I do squeeze like buggery.

Financially, 10% more "efficiency" (amount of sugaz you get out of the grain weight) is worth about 50c. Meh - I'm not a Brewery.

Sparge if you want. Don't sparge if you want. Above all, say "sparge" ten times in a row and listen as it loses all meaning.

 

[Maheel]

well man 'ly beer brewers i would like to draw your attention to page 12 of the spotlight catalogue :huh:

i also checked on line but could only find "cotton" voile so am off to stoplight to get some.....

40% off for another week or so, swiss voile $4.19 per meter (bottom right page 12)

lol there may be a rush of men heading to spotlight this week.......



http://www.spotlight.com.au/catalogues/stocktake-sale?page=7

 

[PistolPatch]

well man 'ly beer brewers i would like to draw your attention to page 12 of the spotlight catalogue :huh:

i also checked on line but could only find "cotton" voile so am off to stoplight to get some.....

40% off for another week or so, swiss voile $4.19 per meter (bottom right page 12)

lol there may be a rush of men heading to spotlight this week.......



http://www.spotlight.com.au/catalogues/stocktake-sale?page=7

Just been having a read here. Some most enjoyable posts!

But Maheel! Hold on!!!!

Don't buy the cotton "Swiss" voille. Cotton, calico, etc will not last very long and may well impart some off-flavours to your beer. You need to go polyester which is inert and can withstand high temperatures.

Print this page and take it with you to Spotlight. They should be able to use that information to get you the right sort of fabric.

Good luck,
Pat

 

[Nick JD]

...and resist the temptation to ask the hot 18 year old girl at Spotlight where the Swiss Voile is - it's less appealing, but the 60 year old nana is the one who knows where it is.

That place is a jungle.

 

[Nodrog]

Nick, you may know a hell of alot about but BIAB, but really???? !!!

on no account should resist the temptation to ask the 18yr old hottie where the swiss voile is.

Only once you tire of following her around the store should you then suggest asking the 60yr old nanna for some help as well.

 

[husky]

Bit the bullet and went in myself. Swiss voile @ $4/metre Spotlight Frankston. Its about 1200mm wide as well so plenty big enough. No hot 18 year olds around so asked the nana after looking for about 15 mins for it. Was right under my nose the whole time. Currently on special too.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Just to finish off any gelatinisation and dextrin formation etc as you said. Also to make the wort less sticky and get a bit more out. Or did I read your analysis wrong?

You did - you missed the part where I repeatedly underlined, made italic, made bold etc the phrase (or a phrase to this effect) - "Stir constantly while you ramp to a mash out"

And then pointed out that the stirring while ramping was integral to the process.

It will still happen to an extent with an "instant" temp raise as you would get in an infusion - but to a significantly lesser degree.

You stir constantly and ramp slowly, the more stubborn starches are slowly released and gelatinised as the temperature increases, but while it is certainly in its death throws... alpha amylase is still active and nibbles away at them as they become available. You are going to run out of available starch at around the same time your alpha amylase is breathing its last. Done.

Whereas if you dump in hot water - everything hits high temp all at once, the alphas turn up their toes and half of any extra starches you release will end up unconverted and maybe give you starch haze.

Plus.... you need an extra pot. I just don't understand why people want to bust out extra saucepans, pots and kettles... when the one they are already using will do the job. Its like parking your car a block from your house and buying a bike to ride from your door to your car... when you have a perfectly good driveway you could be using.

 

[Acasta]

To make a 23L batch, do i need to boil 23L or just add water?

 

[RdeVjun]

To make a 23L batch, do i need to boil 23L or just add water?

No, you don't need to boil 23L, you can add water later as a post- boil dilution (at pitching usually), but you'll need to do an over- gravity boil (wort from a concentrated mash which is more grain and less water, while sparging helps efficiency and volume) and have the right mass of sugars before the boil, so that when you add the water later it dilutes down to the desired OG.
This is not what I'd recommend for a novice though, I'd suggest to stick with regular- strength initially. I do this sort of over- gravity thing regularly though, allows a 19L stockpot to do 23- 25L batches, but again, not really for a beginner. Hops utilisation suffers as well, but it is easy enough to compensate.

Hope I understood your question correctly, and if I did, that this helps! :icon_cheers:

 

[Acasta]

This does help, thank you.

Just wondering what you would recommend for a beginner? just do it as it says at the start of the thread?
When you say stick with regular strength do you mean only boil what ill pitch at 1040-1050 type of thing?