Move To All Grain For Thirty Bucks

[Nick JD]

Hey Bob, I think it's the same thing as muslin or pretty close. I use muslin and get it from Spotlight (everywhere) for $1 or $2 a metre then cut it up. So I chuck it out after each brew rather than wash and re-use.
I do boil it first though.

Thanks from me too Nick.

I've never used muslin and can't comment on its effectiveness. There's no need to boil anything pre-boil.

Swiss Voile can be used almost forever, so it'll end up cheaper - remember that nothing lives through a 60 minute boil, so your bag can get pretty revolting and still produce great beer. That said - wash it every few brews and you're laughing. By "wash" I mean soak it in some napisan for a few hours and rinse and dry.

I only hose mine out after brewing, although today I soaked it in napisan because I forgot I'd left it in the green bucket for three days with the grain in it and ARRRAHHHH ... acetobacter city. VINEGAR.

 

[PistolPatch]

Great to see the posts still flowing in this thread.

You are right on the Muslin, Nick. I have heard of several brewers not being happy with the result. I think BIAB is one of the few things in life where I would advise people to go for the synthetic product - that being polyester.

I think the problem with muslin is as follows though I am not sure of any of them 100% apart from the last...

1. Muslin may impart flavours to the brew. It is a natural fibre full of resins etc.

2. Muslin, with my understanding of it will be too fine and take ages to drain.

3. Muslin, like any other natural fibre, will rot. Polyester has a very high melting point and is therefore very impervious. In simple terms, it lasts a long time. My original BIAB bag (must be at least 4 years old now) is still being used by LloydieP who brews more often than I!

So, stick with the polyester.

Cheers,
Pat

 

[Lobby Lobster]

So, stick with the polyester.

Well there you go. I better voile up.

Cheers.

 

[roddersf]

Great to see the posts still flowing in this thread.

You are right on the Muslin, Nick. I have heard of several brewers not being happy with the result. I think BIAB is one of the few things in life where I would advise people to go for the synthetic product - that being polyester.

I think the problem with muslin is as follows though I am not sure of any of them 100% apart from the last...

1. Muslin may impart flavours to the brew. It is a natural fibre full of resins etc.

2. Muslin, with my understanding of it will be too fine and take ages to drain.

3. Muslin, like any other natural fibre, will rot. Polyester has a very high melting point and is therefore very impervious. In simple terms, it lasts a long time. My original BIAB bag (must be at least 4 years old now) is still being used by LloydieP who brews more often than I!

So, stick with the polyester.

Cheers,
Pat

Hey Pat,

I don't understand how Muslin can impart off flavours, haven't chefs (especially very anal ones regarding flavour - my brother in law being one of them) been using them for hundreds of years without issues? I've brewed many BIAB's with muslin and had no issues at all, maybe you need to buy a "good quality" muslin?? Who knows...

ED: Actually I remember hearing somewhere that al lot of Chinese made fabrics are soaked in formaldehyde - maybe this is the problem?

Regarding point 2, you can get different grades of muslin, the one I use is something like a "medium" (getting technical now ), it drains nicely.

I've used one bit of muslin now (which I brewed with just today) and its been going for 2 years after goodness know's how many brews.

What I like about it is that I don't have to worry about it melting when I "flame on".

Not knocking swiss voile at all, nor am I trying to be smart - just genuinely puzzled by people getting off flavours.

Pat if you could comment on this thread that would be sweet - PS: I appreciate all the work you've put into BIABrewer.com champ!! Keep up the good work.

ALSO - Cheers to Nick JD for this thread - I'm passing it onto two mates who believe AG is near impossible - its threads like this that remove the intimidation factor!

Rodders. :icon_cheers:

 

[PistolPatch]

Hi there rodders and please excuse the slow reply ,

That is good news to hear you are getting great results with muslin. My apprehensive opinion above was based on only a few people's results way back in the beginning. (I just did a search on muslin but so many results came up I gave up. There seems to be some positive talk on muslin from apd round about this post.)

I suppose with fabric descriptions, there is a heap of room for error. What one brewer calls muslin might be totally different form another's - for all I know those having problems with it might have used something dyed, soaked oin formaldehyde and way too fine!

rodders, can you post a pic up of your bag and maybe one of when it was full of a draining mash? These pics might help others to 'picture' and then find the right muslin. Also maybe where you bought it from if possible. I'd certainly prefer to be recommending a natural fibre instead of polyester so if you get time to post more pics and info I'm sure a heap of others would appreciate your effort too.

I'd be a little worried about applying flame to a muslin or a polyester bag without stirring or lifting. My polyester bag won't burn with my set up as my burners provide flame over a wide area. Some burners provide a more focussed flame and will probably burn anything! For this reason as well as for maintaining a uniform mash temp I play it safe and sugget brewers stir or lift when applying heat - there's nothing worse than hearing of someone burning a bag .

Thanks rodders for your positive muslin post above. Thanks for your other comments as well and I'll check out the other post you mentioned now.

All the best and look forward to a beer in Sydney some time,
Pat

 

[flano]

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/30-litre-tea-coffee...Home_Appliances
would this be any good for this type of thing?
regardless of the price that is.

 

[bullfrog]

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/30-litre-tea-coffee...Home_Appliances
would this be any good for this type of thing?
regardless of the price that is.

I've got a 40L urn and find that it's just big enough for my regular stout grain bill. I suppose you'd be okay if you were just doing smaller grain bills or sparging into a seperate vessel and then adding that wort back into your boil.

 

[tavas]

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/30-litre-tea-coffee...Home_Appliances
would this be any good for this type of thing?
regardless of the price that is.

Short answer is yes.

Long answer...
I have used one for BIAB. They are only 30 litres so you need to account for your water additions carefully. Best to aim for an over gravity beer and dilute into the fermenter. Mine boils quite vigoursly and evap rate is about 4.5 litres an hour. When boiling, it spits water everywhere if you're boiling over 25 litres. But otherwise it works fine. Do note however that several other members have bought these and they have died pretty quickly. I think it is due to having 2900W of power in them. The elements tend to crap out on them. Its also rated for 220V not 240 (or 250V in WA) which probably doesn't help.

If you want to use an urn for BIAB (Which is a very good thing), you have two options:
1) Buy this, use it until it dies and get an immerison heater for about $45 and use the urn as a 30 pot. (NB: some guys have retrofitted kettle elements into these. I don't recommend it but there's enough info on here to be able to do this).

2) Save up for a Crown or a Birko. Usually betwen $250 - $300. These are more robust and should last (I bought a 40 lt Birko).

3) Don't use an urn.

Hope that helps
Tavas

 

[Nevalicious]

Short answer is yes.

Long answer...
I have used one for BIAB. They are only 30 litres so you need to account for your water additions carefully. Best to aim for an over gravity beer and dilute into the fermenter. Mine boils quite vigoursly and evap rate is about 4.5 litres an hour. When boiling, it spits water everywhere if you're boiling over 25 litres. But otherwise it works fine. Do note however that several other members have bought these and they have died pretty quickly. I think it is due to having 2900W of power in them. The elements tend to crap out on them. Its also rated for 220V not 240 (or 250V in WA) which probably doesn't help.

If you want to use an urn for BIAB (Which is a very good thing), you have two options:
1) Buy this, use it until it dies and get an immerison heater for about $45 and use the urn as a 30 pot. (NB: some guys have retrofitted kettle elements into these. I don't recommend it but there's enough info on here to be able to do this).

2) Save up for a Crown or a Birko. Usually betwen $250 - $300. These are more robust and should last (I bought a 40 lt Birko).

3) Don't use an urn.

Hope that helps
Tavas

Tavas,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_power_a...#Voltage_ranges

Mains supply throughout Australia is 230vac +10% -6%. 240vac is still reasonably normal, 250v is not normal and certainly wont differ state by state

Fitting a kettle urn to your 30lt urn (IF it shits itself) is a viable option, as I have done it myself. But make sure you know what you're doing or get a leccy mate or family member to help out if unsure... Tavas is right in saying that they have a short life expectancy... Mine hasn't died just yet, I have simply installed the kettle element as a backup if my primary element dies during a boil. The combined wattage of both elements is 2800w approximately (roughtly 13 odd amps) and legally shouldn't be fed from a 10A plug lead, but it is... Another issue.

The tap is cheap and should be replaced with a ball valve assy. Most users of urns will say that regardless of brand, also makes it easier to fit silicon hose to, especially if you NC.

All said, it will still work, just be prepared that you may have to root around with it later on if it dies... Knowing what I know now, probably just should've forked out double the cash and bought a Birko like Tavas did, less fuss, better unit etc

2c

Cheers

Tyler

 

[smilinggilroy]

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/30-litre-tea-coffee...Home_Appliances
would this be any good for this type of thing?
regardless of the price that is.

Do a search on these urns through the forums.(E-bay V5)
They're not that good, put the hard earned dollars into something reliable that won't shit itself mid boil on a Sunday arvo.
My 2c worth
Cheers

 

[flano]

cheers

I think I will just get a big arse pot...stainless or aluminium????

and do biab for a while until

 

[leiothrix]

why would you want a big arse-pot?

The summary is Ali's cheaper, S/S is prettier.

I'd prefer S/S, but it depends on your budget. Ali isn't going to hurt anything.

rob.

 

[goomboogo]

why would you want a big arse-pot?

rob.

I prefer it that way.

 

[flano]

ok ...

just read a fair bit of this again.

Got to about page 9 when my eyes started bleeding and some dude started fugging it up for everyone.

In short.

big pot ..20 ltrs .
coffee grinder or equiv.
Thermometer ( candy ...whatever that means ...some sort of cooking gizmo I reckon)
Swiss violle polyester ...enough for big bag and a few smaller ones for hops etc.

plus ingredients.

no worrys with sticking the hydrometer in such hot liquid??

also my BBQ has a side burner..could I just use this?

..and the fella's who do all grain on their big 3 tiers setups ...does this chew through the gas ( lpg)

cheers
Norks.

 

[barneyb]

coffee grinder or equiv.

I've been using grain crushed by my LHBS and it has works a treat. Efficiency has been a bit on the low side but I think it is mostly due to other reasons.

Thermometer ( candy ...whatever that means ...some sort of cooking gizmo I reckon)

I just use a digital one from Big W ($20) and it works well. Your LHBS might also have some for sale

no worrys with sticking the hydrometer in such hot liquid??

Yeah be careful with this. I believe Nick said later int he thread that he runs the hydro under warm water (ramping the temp up to hot water) before putting it into the hot liquid. If you put a cold one straight in you run the risk of shattering it.

As for you BBQ it will all depend on how much of a boil you can get from it.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

ok ...

just read a fair bit of this again.

Got to about page 9 when my eyes started bleeding and some dude started fugging it up for everyone.

In short.

big pot ..20 ltrs .
coffee grinder or equiv.
Thermometer ( candy ...whatever that means ...some sort of cooking gizmo I reckon)
Swiss violle polyester ...enough for big bag and a few smaller ones for hops etc.

plus ingredients.

no worrys with sticking the hydrometer in such hot liquid??

also my BBQ has a side burner..could I just use this?

..and the fella's who do all grain on their big 3 tiers setups ...does this chew through the gas ( lpg)

cheers
Norks.

Yes yes yes - I sound like SWMBO after my magic hands get going.

Norks, I have 2x19L big w pots (I happened to purchase a second on special for $11), and I now do fullsized batches (split the grain bill in 2) using these on the stove and efficiency is fantastic.

I used a pasta pot to sparge (It has an insert strainer that acts like a false bottom) - it means I'm not hauling big grain bags onto hooks (that I don't own in my rental property). Don't use the door knob, it doesn't work.

If you use CB above - they crush grain for you, so if you don't own a coffee grinder, you can save yourself a few bucks not purchasing one.

The reason I do the fullsize batch? 9L is great for experiments, but it is a whole lot of effort for not that much beer. It's great for practicing, as NickJD says, but it does get a little frustrating devoting half your weekend for 2/3 a carton of beer. Once you're confident with your techniques (and you'll probably invent some that suit you, such as I have), do full size batches. 30 tallies worth of beer is worth that effort.

Some of the 3V blokes can be disparaging toward BIAB (some, not all), but it certainly is a fantastic way to do AG beer, and my efficiencies are over 80%, so I'm not convinced that buying a 3V system is economically sound. Everyone is different though. I respect the years of experience the 3V guys have, but for me, I see no need to "move up" to 3V.

Have fun, nontheless. Horses, courses, etc

 

[barneyb]

Don't use the door knob, it doesn't work.

Really? It worked great for my when I tried. The trick I used was to keep the bag in the bucket, only lift it above the water line. This way is isn't touching the door. Obviously you need a rope to tie it to!

I also have used the trick where you put some dow or a strong broom handle across a kitchen bench where is meets in an L shape and tie the rope to the piece of wood which is hanging over the floor.

The reason I do the fullsize batch? 9L is great for experiments, but it is a whole lot of effort for not that much beer. It's great for practicing, as NickJD says, but it does get a little frustrating devoting half your weekend for 2/3 a carton of beer. Once you're confident with your techniques (and you'll probably invent some that suit you, such as I have), do full size batches. 30 tallies worth of beer is worth that effort.

I think your maths is a tad off . I do 10L batches and get a bit over 1 case worth of beer. (10L / 330ml = 30 beers or if using 375ml = 26 beers). Although I agree it is a lot of effort for a case, it doesn't quite take 1/2 weekend! I can knock over the mash/boil in a couple of hours. I have even done it a couple of times at night after work, spending all the mashing/boiling time cooking dinner and watching TV. Bottling 1 case worth only takes about an hour now I am used to it.

It is definitely for experimenting only though, once I get some good recipes down I will move to making them in full batches. The reason I only do 1/2 batches now is cause there is nothing worse than making 2 1/2 cases worth of beer that is so bitter even your mates won't drink it. Trust me I know from experience!

I like your 2 pot idea for full batches. Ill definitely give that a shot soon.

 

[flano]

Cheers fellas
gonna hit Big W right now see what they have for a big pot.

could I put the bag into a colander that is over the bucket or does it need to be hung?

 

[Nick JD]

The 9L version is really just to keep things simple and small in case anything goes wrong first time round. The first time you're not primarily trying to make beer, you're teaching yourself how to make beer. Drinking the first batch is just a bonus.

I've found a 3 to 3.5kg grain bill and a fermenter volume of 18L @ ~1.050 is easily doable with this gear.

If you want to push the limits, you can do a 24L batch of 4.5% AG beer using this gear.

After your first small batch, all of your questions will answer themselves.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

The 9L version is really just to keep things simple and small in case anything goes wrong first time round. The first time you're not primarily trying to make beer, you're teaching yourself how to make beer. Drinking the first batch is just a bonus.

I've found a 3 to 3.5kg grain bill and a fermenter volume of 18L @ ~1.050 is easily doable with this gear.

If you want to push the limits, you can do a 24L batch of 4.5% AG beer using this gear.

After your first small batch, all of your questions will answer themselves.

True true. Even with average efficiency, you can get a good batch with 3-3.5kg.

I find that 4 to 4.5kg (depending on specialty grains) will do a great job of 22.5L batch. But Nick_JD is absolutely right - 9L is perfect for experimenting. I've had 2 of my experiment batches become fullsize batches. I'm not disparaging 9L batches, they are fantastic for experimenting. And since I now have 2 pots, I can do 2 experimental batches at once. But as a permanent method of making beer, no way will I go batch to 1 x 9L batch per brew day.

Having said that - Nick_JD's guide, despite the knockers, snobs and egos got me to AG brewing. And it got me to the stage of understanding what in practice = what in theory and understanding how they work. I didn't understand mash temps when I first used the guide, but I do understanding the difference mash temps make now. But it's this constant learning and practicing that works.

I think your maths is a tad off . I do 10L batches and get a bit over 1 case worth of beer. (10L / 330ml = 30 beers or if using 375ml = 26 beers). Although I agree it is a lot of effort for a case, it doesn't quite take 1/2 weekend! I can knock over the mash/boil in a couple of hours. I have even done it a couple of times at night after work, spending all the mashing/boiling time cooking dinner and watching TV. Bottling 1 case worth only takes about an hour now I am used to it.

It is definitely for experimenting only though, once I get some good recipes down I will move to making them in full batches. The reason I only do 1/2 batches now is cause there is nothing worse than making 2 1/2 cases worth of beer that is so bitter even your mates won't drink it. Trust me I know from experience!

I like your 2 pot idea for full batches. Ill definitely give that a shot soon.

Sorry, i was doing maths on 9 bottles (ie. 18 stubbies, 2/3 batch), not 9L (12 bottles = 24 stubbies = slab). My apologies.

I've been bottling for 12 years and anything to make it more time efficient or bottle more in less time, I will and have done it. Actually, bottling a 12 bottle batch is really simple. But spending the 3 or 3.5 hours (depending on mash and boil times) is a big effort for 9L of beer.

Experimenting, as above - I've had some graduate to fullsize batches. Great for experimenting and perfect when you have 2 pots to do 2 experiment batches at the same time and great for being creative.

At the moment, I'm playing with SMASH beers at the moment, just to play with different hop types and I'm happy to do a fullsizer with that - because it a really simple process - nothing too concerning as I've done nothing over the top taste wise.

Sorry for the long post.