Mash Time And Beer Foam ?

[BjornJ]

This has been mentioned in another thread before but since I'm still pondering it, I thought I could do a separate thread for only this question:

Mash time:
Should I mash short time (20-40 min) to keep foam-affecting proteins?
Or should I mash long time (1-3 hours) to get a more fermentable wort?

Referring to this article in byo.com saying 60-90 min mash times are at best adding unnecessary time to your brew day, and at worst damaging:
http://www.byo.com/stories/wizard/article/...facts-mr-wizard

also Realbeer.com says using long mash and protein rest with highly modified malts can hurt head retention:
http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/ch14.html

Maybe I'm putting too much into this, but I read this as with today's highly modified malts, there is
-no need to do a protein rest
-"somewhat" damaging for head/foam responsible components in the wort to be mashed for a long time
-that mashing for a shorter time will give similar yields as mashing for 60-90 mins
-that at least homebrewers who don't BIAB can mash for 20-40 mins and then start sparging, the period it takes to clear the wort and collect it in the boil kettle will be part of the mash time and more than enough

BUT:
The article in Byo.com specifically says this can be done if not mashing out. I take this means that as the brewer is not increasing the temperature to mashout temps (76 degrees), the conversion doesn't stop, and this means the time it takes to clear/collect the wort actually is part of the mash-time.
But this means no mash-out, something I have read is good for beer clarity as it adds more dextrins or something. Or am I confusing things, mash-out is not really necessary?

side tracking myself here:
I have a dark mild/light porter kind of beer (yes, it is a bit confused ) that I really like the taste of. But it has little to none head retention qualities. I pour it into a clean, chilled jug and then in clean, cold glasses that have no issues keeping the head of commercial beers. But this beer has a bit of head at the beginning, before loosing any hint of foam or head within 20 seconds. After that time it looks like flat Coca Cola. Would this beer have more head if I mashed for a shorter time, possibly added the darker specialty grains late in the mash to keep more of the foam affecting proteins?

sorry, back on track:

1: Will a short mash time improve head retention?
(By not breaking down the proteins responsible for head formation/retention)


2: Should specialty grains be added late in the mash, again to increase head formation/retention?
(is it "bad" to mash specialty grains)

3: I want a more fermentable wort, but don't want to screw with head formation/retention proteins. Should I do a long mash period (say 2 hours), then add the specialty grains to get the best of both worlds?


Hoping for some thoughts frorm technical brewers here, in order to learn more about how the beer chemistry behind this works


thanks
Bjorn

 

[bradsbrew]

Use grains that aid head retention. and skim whilst bringing to the boil. Sorry I am not a technical brewer but this does help me.

Cheers Brad

 

[MHB]

 

[BottleBitch]

View attachment 35587

I'm pretty sure that if every time a newish member asks a question and gets a response like this we won't have any new members. A bit of understanding go a long way people! It's not a stupid question it shows that this person is thinking about what they are doing and responding to these questions yourself is a good way for you as a member that know a lot more about the process to help them along, you can learn a lot yourself by teaching others what you already know.



Cheers

Brett

 

[Nick JD]

I'm pretty sure that if every time a newish member asks a question and gets a response like this we won't have any new members. A bit of understanding go a long way people! It's not a stupid question it shows that this person is thinking about what they are doing and responding to these questions yourself is a good way for you as a member that know a lot more about the process to help them along, you can learn a lot yourself by teaching others what you already know.

Cheers

Brett

I'm sure the guy isn't like that to people who walk into his shop. Or he'd better start selling steaks from his dead horse.

Ignore him, BjornJ - experts and arseholes are hard to tell apart.

My suggestion is to lean heavily on a bit of wheat in your brews regardless of temperature or mash length for foam retention. It's a cheat's method - but it sure simplifies a complicated subject.

 

[bradsbrew]

View attachment 35587

Cmon MHB, It would have ben quicker and easier to post a link instead of a pic. The search function isnt the easiest to use and people rely on experience more. If you think the guy is flogging a dead horse say so and give your reasons why. With long term members saying this forum has gone to shit because of newer members, perhaps its time to lead by example and offer constructive feedback.

And besides this is a better pic of flogging a dead horse

 

[BjornJ]

Hehehe, thanks for taking the time to read my question and help out MHB.
Didn't notice it said "retailer" until Nick mentioned it.
Guess it was a slow day in the shop today too, eh?
Wonder that..


Anyhoo.

Thanks for the tip about grains and skimming, Brad. I've read several places about adding a bit of wheat to increase head retention, but then again other places wheat is mentioned as bad for clarity due to higher levels of proteins, so that's another one I thought I should leave out until I had an ok beer then try with and without it. I have been adding carapils to some beers, maybe that should be part of every recipe.

But back to the mashing time and effect on foam/head in the finished beer. Meaning how can I by changing my process get clearer beer with lots of nice foam?

Are there any easily accessible online resources/articles I can read more about this dead horse?


Have read of brewers wanting to wait overnight before bottling to split the time needed to brew into two days, and the reservations seems mostly about infection risk. Little mention of other effects from th extended mash time?


The beer I have bubbling away at the moment only has pilsner malt, some cane sugar and 100gr of crystal for a touch of color. I added the crystal late in the mash, thinking maybe this would keep more of the "goodies" from the specialty grains





(for the record I use the search function quite a bit, when searching for "mash time" in subjects only, the first THREE pages have no thread that sound relative to what I am asking)

 

[bradsbrew]

First album I bought. every time Flogging a dead horse gets mentioned I think of this.

 

[bum]

First album I bought.

Mad props.

 

[MHB]

In an attempt to get some reasoned discussion going:-
Almost exactly this question has been asked and answered many times over the last couple of years (remember that the right answer is often going to be maybe). I defiantly recommend using the search function and going over some of the old threads.
The questions asked in the OP cant be answered with the information provided; you need to look at what processes and ingredients went into the beer to have any chance of providing meaning full answers.

In short
Will a long protein rest degrade head, absolutely, is that a bad thing, well thats going to depend on what your making, and what your mashing.
If you had a lot of unmalted adjunct it might be necessary, but on balance I believe a protein rest is neither necessary nor desirable in a mash made up of well modified malt.

How long should you mash, again what are you making and what with.
Want to make a perfect English Bitter with Maris Otter? Easy, just do a 120 minute mash and 120 minute boil; you would get away with 90/120 and maybe 90/90 with GP or Pearl, but if you want perfect with MO its 120/120. If you dont believe me go and try it.
Naturally the above wouldnt suit a German Lager Malt, if you are making a Bitter or a Porter with Australian Ale Malt 60/60 would be fine.

Mash shorter than 60 minutes and there is a very real chance that the beer will be dextrinious (sweet and cloying). In the OP there is no indication as what the beer is made from, or anything about the process.

So the right answer is...........
MHB

OT
Funny isnt it that there are more responses to what was a fairly light hearted suggestion, that Bjorn should do some more reading, than there are to the questions he asked.

Notice that those complaining (mostly) arent the ones giving answers.
Ok some people dont want to do any research and would rather rely on older more experience members spoon feeding them answers, I get that.
But where are all the old, knowledgeable members that used to make AHB such a wonderful place to exchange ideas and learn? Just how many times do we have to answer the same question before saying Hay this question has been answered enough times, go and look (i.e. use the search function)

Nick JDs comments on wheat are on the money, 5-10% wheat will work wonders. Shame he cant resist having a good whinge and taking cheap shots.

 

[bum]

Funny isn't it that there are more responses to what was a fairly light hearted suggestion, that Bjorn should do some more reading, than there are to the questions he asked.

The part that I find funny is that in the removed elements of your post I found some information I've never seen anyone mention explicitly (you see it in Beersmith logs, etc, but not said plainly as you did) - and it cannot be understated how much I read of this board. So thanks for that. Shame you had to be called out as a dickhead for it to happen.

Nick JD's comments on wheat are on the money, 5-10% wheat will work wonders. Shame he can't resist having a good whinge and taking cheap shots.

Perhaps he should have just posted a "humorous" image?

 

[Jimmeh]

Want to make a perfect English Bitter with Maris Otter? Easy, just do a 120 minute mash and 120 minute boil; you would get away with 90/120 and maybe 90/90 with GP or Pearl, but if you want perfect with MO its 120/120. If you don't believe me go and try it.
Naturally the above wouldn't suit a German Lager Malt, if you are making a Bitter or a Porter with Australian Ale Malt 60/60 would be fine.

Is this purely from personal experience or do you have some more info about it?

 

[bum]

It has been brought to my attention that my post may come across as being purely inflammatory. The "thanks" was genuine if that counts for anything.

 

[Screwtop]

Is this purely from personal experience or do you have some more info about it?

Dare I say.......do a search, Screwy ducks for cover again. There are other brewing forums, for UK brewers a 90 min sacch rest is commom using english Malts.

Sorry I looked for a humorous image but couldn't find one :lol: did think MHB's was funny though, it is a subject which has beeen flogged somewhat and as in all things brewing......................it depends as was well pointed out.

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[bum]

Sorry I looked for a humorous image but couldn't find one :lol: did think MHB's was funny though, it is a subject which has beeen flogged somewhat and as in all things brewing......................it depends as was well pointed out.

Yeah but surely we're all familiar with how the internet works by now: new person walks in and demands answers. 9 times out of 10 the same person works out how the board runs itself and doesn't barge in with obvious questions. Even without witty macros.

As for your first point - what should he search for? "Is it safe to mash Marris Otter for the supposed standard 60 minutes or should I mash longer?" It is kinda specific even if it has been covered numerous times before.

Oh, I bet you don't like it when the tables are turned do you, Screwy?!!! :lol:
(Before someone else lambasts me for going a much more knowledgeable and helpful brewer than myself (which MHB is too) - I'm pretty sure Screwy knows that I mean no offense.)

 

[sav]

Have you really had a all grain beer lacking head ever? I havent,just thinking thats all

 

[Fourstar]

read this: it will open your eyes to a whole world of foam: http://www.byo.com/stories/article/indices...5-fabulous-foam

focus on getting formation first via dextrins, hop resins and viscosity. From there retention should come part and parcel.

 

[Screwtop]

Yeah but surely we're all familiar with how the internet works by now: new person walks in and demands answers. 9 times out of 10 the same person works out how the board runs itself and doesn't barge in with obvious questions. Even without witty macros.

As for your first point - what should he search for? "Is it safe to mash Marris Otter for the supposed standard 60 minutes or should I mash longer?" It is kinda specific even if it has been covered numerous times before.

Oh, I bet you don't like it when the tables are turned do you, Screwy?!!! :lol:
(Before someone else lambasts me for going a much more knowledgeable and helpful brewer than myself (which MHB is too) - I'm pretty sure Screwy knows that I mean no offense.)

Bum's got the hump tonight :lol:

Like lots of others here I search all over the place and belong to a few forums, so when I see UK brewers mashing UK malts at pretty much a standard 90 min I ask myself why, and go and do another search. Then I test the theory and extend my sacch rest time to 90 min and increased attenuation, that's good for the beers I am making. Answer, it depends..........if you mash longer and the results are what you want in the beer you are brewing then it's right for you!

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[MHB]

I know its a popular sport to slag off at retailers here but we not only get to work out answers to our own problems but to all our customers problems to, so when lots of people are having similar problems with a malt (MO in this case), its part of my job to find answers.

The problems being
Turbidity (cloudy as all get out)
Low foam
Poor bottle life (stability)

Maris Otter is an old fashion malt; its the last of its generation still in use, after having a long hard look at the brewing processes in use when MO was a Typical brewing malt, the things that really stood out was that all the brewing was done to the old 400 minute standard brew day, (yep over 6 hours from grain to knockout) and that hop alphas were rarely over 5% with 3-4% being typical.
Now you would think that long mashes and boils would remove way too much of the head building protein (low to start with) but when you try the long process you will get crystal clear beer thats stable in the bottle and holds a head you cant kill with a big stick. Its the hops that build the head in these Old Fashioned Beers more than the protein.

If you want to try, do a 100% MO (you will get plenty of colour from the long boil), if you must use some crystal malt go easy (say 5%) and use low alpha hops, first choice would have to be EKG, just one addition at the end of the hot break foamy stage, aim for about 35-40 IBU (you need lots of hops see 4*s link if you want to know why). Mash lowish (64-65) and you dont need a raging boil; you still want 8-10%/hour and dont be afraid to top up to hit your volume.
And a big one dont get any of the trub into the fermenter, its head fatal.

There has been a lot more gone into this than just applying old brewing practices, but I think that will do me for tonight.
MHB

 

[bum]

Thank you again (genuinely) for some more information I have not yet come across here.