Mash And Boil

[beermonster17]

Hi fellow brewers,
i'm still new to the all grain and looking at recipies and am wondering what difference mashing and boiling for 60 mins is as opposed to mashing and boiling for 90 mins. Does this convert more sugars from the grain and does this increase the bittering of the beer to boil longer. i'm sure there is a link to explain the great mysteries out there, help would be greatly appreiciated cheers,
beermonster17.

 

[bignath]

Hi beermonster, (love your name by the way..)

the way your post reads sounds a little bit like your confusing some processes. It sounds like you think mashing and boiling are the same thing, or a combined process?? More than happy to be corrected though buddy, it's just how it reads to me.
Anyway, just in case you have got it a little muddled, mashing and boiling are completely separate processes done in separate vessels unless your doing BIAB.

Mashing is the process of soaking the grains in hot water to extract sugars that will make up your "wort".

You won't convert any more sugars just by mashing longer. You will get different flavour profiles by mashing at different temps, but not necessarily longer. Most sugars will converted after around 30mins anyway, but we tend to leave it for an hour just to be sure.

Boiling (as it implies) is taking this "wort" and boiling it. There is a step in between if you are doing traditional mash brewing which is called "sparging" and this is the process that eventually removes the wort from the grain that you have "mashed".

How long into the boil you add the hops, affects the bitterness. The longer you boil 'em the more bitter (to a point) your resulting wort will be. I would say most brewers probably do a 60min boil, with 90 minutes being a good amount of time to do a lager/pilsner type of boil as this reduces the likelihood of certain off flavours being produced.
If you want to boil for 60min and do a typical bittering addition, add the hops at the start of the boil and let it go for an hour. If you want the same/similar bitterness but in a 90min boil, add the hops 30min after the start of the boil.
The more advanced brewers, or brewers who want the utmost accuracy over their beers, will sometimes go with the flow and adjust their boil time on the fly so to speak as they may be chasing a specific gravity level in the kettle.

My apologies if this post is stuff you already know, but it sounded to me like you had a few things that needed clarification.

Cheers mate,

Nath

 

[Crusty]

Hi fellow brewers,
i'm still new to the all grain and looking at recipies and am wondering what difference mashing and boiling for 60 mins is as opposed to mashing and boiling for 90 mins. Does this convert more sugars from the grain and does this increase the bittering of the beer to boil longer. i'm sure there is a link to explain the great mysteries out there, help would be greatly appreiciated cheers,
beermonster17.

60 vs 90 is really a personal thing & I think most people these days mash for 60mins & boil for 60mins.
If you strike in with a lower temperature, maybe a 90min mash would be better suited to ensure complete conversion. At higher strike in temps, conversion of course will happen quicker & a 60min infusion is more than enough time for complete conversion.
A 90min boil may be needed to boil off excess volumes to make sure you hit your target OG. Some people reckon DMS is better driven off with a longer boil but a fairly vigorous boil for 60mins will also take care of that.
I would stick with a 60min mash & 60min boil for pretty much everything unless you are aiming for a super huge ABV beer with a large grain bill.

Nath beat me to it.

 

[marksfish]

the mash is to convert the starch in the malt into sugar by enzymes, most mash for 60 min but some mash for 90 min (myself included) just to be sure. if using ale malt or extract a 60 min boil will do the job but if using a pilsner malt a 90-100 min boil is used to drive of d.m.s an off flavor in beer.

 

[felten]

Enzyme activity is affected by the temperature, the higher it is the faster they will convert, so it is recommended if you are mashing at a low temperature to extend the rest (90m or more) to ensure complete conversion, like crusty said.

As for the boil time, it is recommended to do a 90m boil with pilsner and lightly kilned malts because they contain more SMM, the precursor to DMS which you want to remove from the wort via boiling. link on DMS and its half life here.

 

[MHB]

Mashing longer is an interesting question, some mash programs go a lot longer than 90 minutes, the longest I have ever run took around 4 hours and there are very good reasons to do this.

There are something like 27 enzymes that can act on a grist, we mostly talk about Amylase and that's by far and away the most important, you will also hear reference made to Phytase, Glucanase, Protease and some others, these tend to be killed (denatured) if you mash in, in the mid 60's but they can be very important if you have a lot of un/under modified grain or a lot of wheat in your grist.

Although all or most of the starch may be "Saccharified" in the first 20-30 minutes, you won't have the right ratio of fermentable and unfermentable sugars, the sweet water will be rich in dextrins and if you fermented it you would get a very full bodied wort and an out of balance beer.

Boiling likewise is more complex than just getting the Alpha acid isomerised, you are as mentioned above trying to strip out some undesirable volatiles, another important function of wort boiling is to reduce the soluble protein in the wort, with modern well modified malt this is relatively easy to achieve in 60 minutes (for Ale anyway) if however you are using an older variety like Maris Otter you will see immense benefits to a 120 minute boil. I think it's worth doing a MO ale and drawing samples at 60,90 and 120 minutes (just a couple of hundred mills in a jar) and having a look and taste to see how much difference it makes.

As is so often the case there is not going to be a single "Right" answer, there are pros and cons to each decision, if you keep making choices based on whether or not the ingredient or the process will improve the beer, rather than on is it cheaper or easier, the quality of your beer will improve.

MHB

 

[pcmfisher]

Although all or most of the starch may be "Saccharified" in the first 20-30 minutes, you won't have the right ratio of fermentable and unfermentable sugars, the sweet water will be rich in dextrins and if you fermented it you would get a very full bodied wort and an out of balance beer.

Is that regardless of mash temperature?
How would different mash temperatures affect the out of balanceness :huh: caused by a short mash?

 

[Bribie G]

Inspired by Dave Line's old book "Brewing beers like those you buy" and his famous instructions "Mash for 90 minutes, or overnight" I did an overnight mash last year with a TTL and it turned out fine. However I don't do it as a rule because of the extra power and time required to get the temp back up next day.
However it's a good lurk to have up your sleeve if you are caught out on a brewday and something urgent pops up.

 

[beermonster17]

Enzyme activity is affected by the temperature, the higher it is the faster they will convert, so it is recommended if you are mashing at a low temperature to extend the rest (90m or more) to ensure complete conversion, like crusty said.

As for the boil time, it is recommended to do a 90m boil with pilsner and lightly kilned malts because they contain more SMM, the precursor to DMS which you want to remove from the wort via boiling. link on DMS and its half life here.

thanks for all the good advice guys with the recipie i'm trying it's the dr smurtos landlord ale which says mash for 90 and boil for 90 do you think this needs to be a 90 min boil as that would increase the whole brew day by a fair bit cheers,
beermonster.

 

[goomboogo]

I've just looked the Dr's recipe in the data base and see the base malt is Maris Otter. I will assume this is what you intend to use. If so, a 90 minute boil is highly recommended. Have another look at MHB's post and in particular the paragraph about Maris Otter.

I agree with idea that these choices should be made on the basis of whether it improves the quality of the beer rather than being what is easier or cheaper. If a 60 minute boil is what you desire then there are other possibilities for base malt that may be preferable to the Maris Otter. But then it won't be the beer in the original recipe. Choices are many and only you can make them. After all, it is your beer.

 

[beermonster17]

I've just looked the Dr's recipe in the data base and see the base malt is Maris Otter. I will assume this is what you intend to use. If so, a 90 minute boil is highly recommended. Have another look at MHB's post and in particular the paragraph about Maris Otter.

I agree with idea that these choices should be made on the basis of whether it improves the quality of the beer rather than being what is easier or cheaper. If a 60 minute boil is what you desire then there are other possibilities for base malt that may be preferable to the Maris Otter. But then it won't be the beer in the original recipe. Choices are many and only you can make them. After all, it is your beer.

I've decided to try a 60 min boil and a 90 min and compare the results when i have finished thanks again for the help will keep you posted. On the subject of DMS does this just effect the taste or does this add to a bad hangover effect?

 

[goomboogo]

The effects of DMS present in finished beer are described variously as cooked vegetables, creamed corn, cabbage, amongst others. So yes it can have an effect on flavour at the right levels. Theses levels differ depending on an individual's perceptive threshold for such compounds. Although, if you're using Maris Otter and have a vigorous boil (60 or 90 minute) I don't think you will run into too many issues with DMS.

 

[MHB]

DMS is only a problem for Lager/Pilsner malt, the more intensive kilning given to Ale malt breaks down or ejects the precursors.

Maris Otter is an Ale malt so I think you can forget all about DMS.

Still reckon you should do a 90/120 with Maris, shite if your going to lash out and buy one of the most expensive and most highly regarded malts on earth treat it right, whats an extra half hour or even an hour when it comes to beer.

MHB

 

[Thirsty Boy]

interesting MHB - I've really not played a lot with MO. But I am starting to brew with more high quality imported malts at the moment and so i might give the 120min boil a go with my next English ale. Thanks.

TB

 

[Steve@PMF82]

Interesting comment about the MO, i just used it for the first time , only did a 60min boil and i am not really that impressed with the clarity of the beer
compared to previous base malts using the same process. In the future i think i may try 120min boil.
The taste however is great, MO has a real depth to it when the beer warms up a bit after serving.

 

[MHB]

MO is an old malt variety (perhaps the last of them), I never was happy with the way MO beers presented, always fairly turbid so I modelled the old 400 minute brew cycle and what do you know stunning clarity and a beautiful honey gold colour.

90/120 is the cutting the corners version; but not too many.

I'm thinking I'll get myself a 1Kg of Heritage Crystal 10Kg of Floor Malted Maris, a shed load of EKG plugs and do myself a no holds barred Luddite Pale Ale, about 1.065, 35-40 EBC and IBU, Ringwood yeast, run it through the hop-back and serve on a hand pull

MHB

 

[Steve@PMF82]

I'm thinking I'll get myself a 1Kg of Heritage Crystal 10Kg of Floor Malted Maris, a shed load of EKG plugs and do myself a no holds barred Luddite Pale Ale, about 1.065, 35-40 EBC and IBU, Ringwood yeast, run it through the hop-back and serve on a hand pull

MHB

:icon_drool2: :icon_drool2: :icon_drool2:

 

[asis]

I also recently used MO for the first or maybe second time ever.
I was at MHB complaining about the clarity of the beer that had been kegged for about 10 days. First thing Mark asked was did I use MO and how long did I boil for. I had mashed for 90 mins and boiled for 90 mins and the beer literally looks like dam water . It has been in the kegs for 3 weeks now with no improvement. Luckily it tastes fine. :mellow:

 

[gregs]

I have been reading this thread with interest and dont have any answer; but I have used MO on 5 occasions in 2 different beers.

Three of them being Docs Yard Glass Session Lite and two of them being a Landlord clone.

Each time I have used MO I find that it kind of dough balls in the mash tun, leaving the very small dough balls dry in the centre and knocking the usual 80% efficiency a little lower, I have to stir the bejesus out of it to try and get it wet. But disregarding this, the beers have been hazier than other malts I have used. The mash and boil times were 60 min.

Do you think that if MO doesnt convert as easily (due to having trouble getting the entire mash wet)that this may contribute to haze of some description?

 

[MHB]

No I think Maris converts just fine, it just cracks differently to other malts. It really is an antique variety and hasn't had the benefit of hundreds of generation of selective breading (in the modern sense anyway).

A one size fits all approach to milling malt can turn around and bite you on occasions, personally a very coarse crack works for me, just a bit finer than a floating mash and a bucket full of patience.

MHB