Mash And Boil

[gregs]

Yeah the milling of malt is defiantly as you say; not a one size fits all. My mill is a precision made 4 inch stainless roller job and I have found that malts do crush differently. And I find that MO is harder to wet in the mash, but maybe I need to use patience.

 

[Ross]

We use Maris Otter virtually every day in our brewery & only boil for 60 minutes - The beers ALL have excellent clarity.
I've had problems with Bairds MO in the long distant past but never with Fawcett's, which is why it's the only MO we use.

Ross

 

[bradsbrew]

We use Maris Otter virtually every day in our brewery & only boil for 60 minutes - The beers ALL have excellent clarity.
I've had problems with Bairds MO in the long distant past but never with Fawcett's, which is why it's the only MO we use.

Ross

Well that answers the puzzle for me. I was thinking I havn't had any hazy problem with MO and my marga is set reasonable fine but yeah I have only used the Fawcett's.

Cheers

 

[Steve@PMF82]

Interesting again. I did not use TF MO, but i have used some of their other base malts a few times now and they have all by far (to me anyway) been my best beers in terms of clean flavours and overall clarity.

 

[peaky]

We use Maris Otter virtually every day in our brewery & only boil for 60 minutes - The beers ALL have excellent clarity.
I've had problems with Bairds MO in the long distant past but never with Fawcett's, which is why it's the only MO we use.

Ross

Ross,

Do you think a 60min boil would work ok for Simpson's MO? I've never used MO before and I have a bag of Simpson's arriving soon. I'm guessing a 90min boil wouldn't hurt but if it's not really necessary....

Cheers

 

[MHB]

If you are going to go the extra expense of using Maris it would be the floor malted, so that's the Fawcett. Over the years people have had lots of problems with turbidity from MO, being floor malted there is going to be some variation; it may be a batch to batch issue, a combination of local water chemistry and the grain... whatever the cause, a longer mash/boil certainly fixes the problem.

If you are getting good results without the extra work, great, but if you have an issue or just want to see if there is a difference try a 90/120 cycle and see what happens.

MHB

 

[bradsbrew]

We use Maris Otter virtually every day in our brewery & only boil for 60 minutes - The beers ALL have excellent clarity.
I've had problems with Bairds MO in the long distant past but never with Fawcett's, which is why it's the only MO we use.

Ross

Well that answers the puzzle for me. I was thinking I havn't had any hazy problem with MO and my marga is set reasonable fine but yeah I have only used the Fawcett's.

Cheers

If you are going to go the extra expense of using Maris it would be the floor malted, so that's the Fawcett. Over the years people have had lots of problems with turbidity from MO, being floor malted there is going to be some variation; it may be a batch to batch issue, a combination of local water chemistry and the grain... whatever the cause, a longer mash/boil certainly fixes the problem.

If you are getting good results without the extra work, great, but if you have an issue or just want to see if there is a difference try a 90/120 cycle and see what happens.

MHB

Thought I'd better add that I now mash for 90 and boil for at least 90. Good info BTW MHB

Cheers

 

[Bribie G]

MHB - I take it that the bittering hop addition would still be 60 mins or would you go the 90 mins with that as well?

I've recently gone onto 75 mins for all boils, with the first 15 to let it settle down and get trucking then add the hops for 60 mins. Despite the ravages of Anna Bligh, boiling in an urn isn't expensive - about the same as running a fan heater - so it's just time really.

 

[bradsbrew]

MHB - I take it that the bittering hop addition would still be 60 mins or would you go the 90 mins with that as well?

I've recently gone onto 75 mins for all boils, with the first 15 to let it settle down and get trucking then add the hops for 60 mins. Despite the ravages of Anna Bligh, boiling in an urn isn't expensive - about the same as running a fan heater - so it's just time really.

:icon_offtopic: Bribie have you tried FWHing? I have recently changed to a hopping regime of FWH , 15 or 10 min hop then cube hopping. I have found the bitterness is not so harsh/astringuent.

Brad

added one word makes a big difference.

 

[Bribie G]

:icon_offtopic: harsh and astringent with FWH or with cube hopping?

I recently did a version of Manticle's Youngs Special London Ale and cube hopped with 45g of Progress. It's not a pleasant beer, something really out of balance, a sort of ISO twang, almost like a kit twang - the malt is fine. I tipped the last third of the keg. Got a couple of bottles in the archive, I'd welcome your opinion at BABBs if you are going to the March meeting. I don't cube hop any more, I use the argon method.

 

[bradsbrew]

:icon_offtopic: harsh and astringent with FWH or with cube hopping?

I recently did a version of Manticle's Youngs Special London Ale and cube hopped with 45g of Progress. It's not a pleasant beer, something really out of balance, a sort of ISO twang, almost like a kit twang - the malt is fine. I tipped the last third of the keg. Got a couple of bottles in the archive, I'd welcome your opinion at BABBs if you are going to the March meeting. I don't cube hop any more, I use the argon method.

Sorry mate. Was meant to be not so harsh/astinguent. Using FWH compared to 60min boil with no chill method I find that bitterness tends to be less harsh with FWH

Cheers

 

[Bribie G]

Seeing as all my bittering hops are pellets then it's just a case of chucking them in as soon as the Bag is hoisted.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

No I think Maris converts just fine, it just cracks differently to other malts. It really is an antique variety and hasn't had the benefit of hundreds of generation of selective breading (in the modern sense anyway).

A one size fits all approach to milling malt can turn around and bite you on occasions, personally a very coarse crack works for me, just a bit finer than a floating mash and a bucket full of patience.

MHB

Jeez MHB, its not that ancient - it was introduced sometime in the 60s IIRC and came out of research at a plant breeding institute ... Hardly what the Babylonians were making their beer out of.

It stopped being popular there for a while - maybe there were issues with it in the past because it was only being grown in small lots and the chance to be picky about the malting quality of the barley wasn't there. Different maltsters might have had better supply contracts and the choice of better quality raw material?? Which might explain it cracking differently... Small maltster, lower end of the malting quality spectrum, smaller average kernal size, cracks more poorly for a given mill setting?

Speculation only.

 

[Bribie G]

Graham Wheeler reckons that if every UK beer that claims to be made from MO was actually made from it, Britain would be endless waving fields of Maris Otter from horizon to horizon

 

[gregs]

Graham Wheeler reckons that if every UK beer that claims to be made from MO was actually made from it, Britain would be endless waving fields of Maris Otter from horizon to horizon

That sounds like King Island beef, every restaurant in Australia has it on the menu and the Island is just a speck on the map with a breading stock you could count on your fingers and toes.

Anyhow back on topic, even though I find MO a little harder to wet in the mash I still think it is one of the great malts to have in your kit.

 

[Punkal]

Vic45 that brings up a good question. What % of Maris Otter grain do you (retailers) have to have in your malted grain to call it Maris Otter? and how much of that malted grain do you have to have in a beer to say it has been made with Maris Otter?

 

[MHB]

Vic45 that brings up a good question. What % of Maris Otter grain do you (retailers) have to have in your malted grain to call it Maris Otter? and how much of that malted grain do you have to have in a beer to say it has been made with Maris Otter?

There are two separate questions there so...

What % of Maris Otter grain do you (retailers) have to have in your malted grain to call it Maris Otter?
100%
When we (as Retailers) buy Maris or any other grain (read hop and yeast to for that matter) it comes in a bag labelled with the contents, the same bag you get if you buy by the bag.
There never has been any suggestion that any unethical trade practices are going on at the farm, malting, distribution or retail level of the industry.
Personally I would be extremely careful about even hinting that anything untoward was going on without some very strong evidence, each delivery comes with laboratory reports and in the case of English malts you could track it back to the farm if you really wanted to. Likewise some of the US hops have the farmers name on the 5Kg package, all have type Alpha, often Beta and where grown.


how much of that malted grain do you have to have in a beer to say it has been made with Maris Otter?
More than 0%
If a package says made with... it's pretty much open season
On the other hand made from mean only the ingredients listed are used.

I think what is being alluded to is that many brewers use some Maris in their beer, but the impression is given that the beer is all Maris. In part I suspect this happens when the marketing/advertising department gets hold of the label. If a label said made with English Crystal Malt, you wouldn't assume that that was the only malt in the beer.

MHB

 

[DJR]

[/size]On the other hand made from mean only the ingredients listed are used.

"Made from" vs "Made from only" perhaps as well as another distinction? I can see Made From still being used to represent more than 0%

 

[Punkal]

MHB, I should have probably used maltsters instead of relaters, it was only a quick replay to Vic45's comments "A Melbourne maltster told me there is twice as much maris otter sold as there is grown."

I simply asked what % of grain there needs to be in a brand for it to be called that name... according to the comments by Vic45 that would appear to be 50%...

If you would like me to remove my comment from (retailers) and change it to (maltsters) i can do that, it appears it has stuck a nerve...

Maybe i need to put a extra line in my sig block saying don't take anything i say serious or maybe just copy something from a EULA...

 

[warra48]

Mashing longer is an interesting question, some mash programs go a lot longer than 90 minutes, the longest I have ever run took around 4 hours and there are very good reasons to do this.

There are something like 27 enzymes that can act on a grist, we mostly talk about Amylase and that's by far and away the most important, you will also hear reference made to Phytase, Glucanase, Protease and some others, these tend to be killed (denatured) if you mash in, in the mid 60's but they can be very important if you have a lot of un/under modified grain or a lot of wheat in your grist.

Although all or most of the starch may be "Saccharified" in the first 20-30 minutes, you won't have the right ratio of fermentable and unfermentable sugars, the sweet water will be rich in dextrins and if you fermented it you would get a very full bodied wort and an out of balance beer.

Boiling likewise is more complex than just getting the Alpha acid isomerised, you are as mentioned above trying to strip out some undesirable volatiles, another important function of wort boiling is to reduce the soluble protein in the wort, with modern well modified malt this is relatively easy to achieve in 60 minutes (for Ale anyway) if however you are using an older variety like Maris Otter you will see immense benefits to a 120 minute boil. I think it's worth doing a MO ale and drawing samples at 60,90 and 120 minutes (just a couple of hundred mills in a jar) and having a look and taste to see how much difference it makes.

As is so often the case there is not going to be a single "Right" answer, there are pros and cons to each decision, if you keep making choices based on whether or not the ingredient or the process will improve the beer, rather than on is it cheaper or easier, the quality of your beer will improve.

MHB

Brewed an Amber Ale today. 92% TF Maris Otter, 7% mixed Crystal, 1% Chocolate. Mashed 2 hours at 66C, and did a 120 minute boil.
Never ever, in 4 years of brewing, have I had such clear wort into the fermenter. It looked really clear, almost bright, no haze whatsoever. The wort pre-boil tasted absolutely gorgeous, and clean as a whistle. I have good hopes for this brew.

I know it's only a single batch, but it definitely tends to support the information from MHB. I'll be following this regime for future brews made with the balance of this sack of TFMO.