Lagering

[npenno]

Hi All,

I am about to brew my first lager (BIAB). I am not sure if to bottle before or after lagering.

At the moment I was thinking of pitching yeast (wyeart 2124) at room temp and then putting in garage for fermenting, should be about 12 degrees this time of year. Then when about 10 sg points are left bring up to 20 degrees for diacetyl rest.

Now my confusion is from there to I bottle then leave at 12 degrees for 2 weeks to carb and then lower to nearly 0 for a month or so.. or..
drop temp of fermenter to 0 degrees for a month and then bottle?

Any help?

Thanks,

Nick

 

[peas_and_corn]

Lager before you bottle. The process of lagering helps clarity and rids the beer of off flavours.

 

[kocken42]

I think it generally comes down to personal preference...

I generally will cold store the beer as a whole in a secondary fermenter for 3 to 4 weeks, then bring back up to temperature and bottle.

Also, it's quite important that you pitch the yeast at the desired fermenting temperature for the best results, rather than pitching at a warm temp. and bringing it down.

Good luck.

 

[amiddler]

I think it generally comes down to personal preference...

I generally will cold store the beer as a whole in a secondary fermenter for 3 to 4 weeks, then bring back up to temperature and bottle.

Also, it's quite important that you pitch the yeast at the desired fermenting temperature for the best results, rather than pitching at a warm temp. and bringing it down.

Good luck.

I would personally follow what MLP has suggested. Bulk condition, and always pitch yeast at fermenting temp then raise as needed never the other way around.

Drew

 

[Bribie G]

As someone elegantly described in a post on lagering the other week: the purpose of lagering is to allow the junk and crap to settle out of the beer and be left behind in the lagering vessel when the beer is packaged. If you "lager" in the bottle then you end up with that junk and crap right there in every bottle.

 

[Aleosaurus cervisiae]

I've got 2 questions.
What is the difference then between secondary fermentation and lagering? I have got Oktoberfest bubbling happily at 12oC and I was going to just let it ferment in primary for 2 weeks at 12oC and then bottle and store in the shed for a few weeks. Should I do anything different? The yeast is Wyeast 2633 Octoberfest.
The other question is what flavours can I expect, as I pitched at 22oC and then lowered the temp to 14, as per instructions on the pack?

 

[Bribie G]

"secondary fermentation" is a term that very few people seem to use correctly, it involves running the beer off into another container, not necessarily at a cooler temperature, and finishing off the fermentation in that container. I doubt if very many people do that any more. Many people refer to their cold conditioning beer as being "in secondary", which is not actually the case.

Cold conditioning, or "lagering" from a German word meaning "to store" is about using a cold temperature to hasten settling out of yeast and haze forming compounds, and the beer can be there from days to months. Generally ales do not need to be cold conditioned for very long (I usually do so for a week) - with UK style Real Ales, in their homeland they are usually finished off in casks in the pub cellar at cool but not cold temperatures and there a second fermentation does take place to slightly carbonate the beer. Lagers on the other hand are generally given from 10 days to a few months depending on the brewery, and as close to zero as you can get.

If you pitch at a higher temperature than you fermented at, then you should briefly bring the beer back up to that temperature before lagering, to allow the yeast to clean up properly and remove compounds such as diacetyl which can give a buttery taste.

Edit: now that I have a new fridge with a digital display that can be dialled up and down at will, I have started to ferment and cold condition in the same vessel, and getting just as good results as using two vessels as I did in the "old" days. I got the idea from Bacchus Brewing who do this with all their beers, after fermentation they just wheel the fermenters from the cool fermenting room round to the very cold conditioning room and leave them for 10 days.

 

[kocken42]

Bribie beat me to it, and was far more accurate in his response

 

[Aleosaurus cervisiae]

Thanks guys. Just another question, after fermenting and lagering, should I bottle it the same way as one does for ales?

 

[Brewman_]

Just a question regarding Post lager conditioning.

After a 2 week lager at say 0 or -1 Deg.C, does anyone naturally condition? Is there enough yeast to do that? Or do you force carbonate after kegging. I guess that is a purely kegging question? Is there a point where you should re-introduce yeast for natural carbonation of a well lagered Lager? Becuase I assume if you were to bottle you would have to have some yeast available.

Fear_n_Loath

 

[kocken42]

It is possible to naturally condition.

At the cold temperatures the yeast will more than likely go dormant, but not deceased.

Once you warm up the beer again to fermentation temps and add sugar, they should carbonate. It is also feasible to re-innoculate for the purpose of bottle carbonation.

 

[Wolfy]

Thanks guys. Just another question, after fermenting and lagering, should I bottle it the same way as one does for ales?

Yes, but you may need to add additional yeast.

Just a question regarding Post lager conditioning.

After a 2 week lager at say 0 or -1 Deg.C, does anyone naturally condition? Is there enough yeast to do that?

Yes it is possible, after lagering for 2 weeks you may still have enough yeast in suspension for bottle carbonation (you need about 1miillion cells per ml, which can look clear), however if lagering beer for a longer period it might be wise to add a small amount of fresh yeast (yeast grown in a a 200ml starter is about all you need).

 

[Dave70]

In a slightly off-ish vein to the op's question, due to bottling my last few batches I now have an abundance of fridge space where the kegs use to sit. I've got a bunch of carbed up this and that sitting under the house ready to go.
Is there anything to gain by cramming them into the fridge and storing them super cold? Kind of like post crash chill - post lagering - lagering - erm..yeah.

 

[kevin_smevin]

Yes, but you may need to add additional yeast.

Yes it is possible, after lagering for 2 weeks you may still have enough yeast in suspension for bottle carbonation (you need about 1miillion cells per ml, which can look clear), however if lagering beer for a longer period it might be wise to add a small amount of fresh yeast (yeast grown in a a 200ml starter is about all you need).

I thought you only needed 100 000 cells/ml for bottle conditioning? I'll have to check the yeast book again.

 

[Bribie G]

In a slightly off-ish vein to the op's question, due to bottling my last few batches I now have an abundance of fridge space where the kegs use to sit. I've got a bunch of carbed up this and that sitting under the house ready to go.
Is there anything to gain by cramming them into the fridge and storing them super cold? Kind of like post crash chill - post lagering - lagering - erm..yeah.

Two of the winners of the Nats last year (both Queenslanders) had brewed in February and had the winning bottles in the fridge for many months. One of them whom I know personally has God knows how many fridges full of "tasting" stubbies that sit there for months, slowly polishing up. I'd recommend it :icon_cheers:

I thought you only needed 100 000 cells/ml for bottle conditioning? I'll have to check the yeast book again.

Yes yeast book says that at that concentration of yeast, the beer actually looks crystal clear to the naked eye (one reason I don't intend to get a filter).
However to be on the safe side you can collect the first runnings out of your vessel that you lagered in, which will always be a bit cloudy for a second or two till the clear stuff starts coming through, and use a syringe to zoom round the bottles and inject a few drops into each bottle. Or bulk prime and squirt a few ml of those first runnings back into the priming vessel.

 

[Wolfy]

I thought you only needed 100 000 cells/ml for bottle conditioning? I'll have to check the yeast book again.

You had me worried for a moment, so had to check.
Page 116, under the Bottle Conditioning heading:
"A good rule of thumb is 1 million yeast cells per millileter of filtered beer"

 

[Bribie G]

INNOCULATE, INNOCULATE

 

[npenno]

Thanks for the info.

Why pitch at the fermentation instead of the a higher temp as instructed on the packet. Will it make much of a difference?

 

[Bribie G]

I think that packet instructions on yeasts are really an "insurance policy" because they don't know who is going to be buying the product and they want to make it as foolproof as possible - hence the instructions on some mass market kits to ferment at 28 degrees etc.
It's also an "insurance" against people underpitching and then complaining that they are getting a piss poor fermentation.
If you ensure that you have a good pitching rate (for example I always do a starter and work up a Wyeast to a more solid pitch, despite what the packet says) then you can pitch lower in the case of a lager.


The "Yeast" book recommends pitching at a couple of degrees below fermenting temperature then bring it up slowly. In your case by pitching higher you have probably overridden any underpitching problems you may have had and the end result should be perfectly acceptable, I wouldn't worry too much. Next time, try breeding up a big starter, pitch cold and see how you go.

 

[kevin_smevin]

You had me worried for a moment, so had to check.
Page 116, under the Bottle Conditioning heading:
"A good rule of thumb is 1 million yeast cells per millileter of filtered beer"

I stand corrected