Just how DO you get that juicy IPA taste and aroma?

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Dude, we can grow about 3 different plants in Darwin, and unfortunately hops aint one if em'

 

[ein stein]

Yeah not sold on the idea of the liners in bottle caps absorbing all your hop aromas. what about keg orings, beer lines, transfer hoses,HDPE fermenters etc? Ive not smelled one and said "oh snap thats where all my hop flavours went!"
Don't use a hop spider myself and I've heard they clog really easily. I just dangle a hop sock in the boil. Now I am kegging I do my transfers under a thick (and visible) layer of Co2 and I am loving the results.

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Also Dan, even though my hops smell really fresh from the packet, they seem to die right away when thrown into the wort. I'm guessing this is normal considering I've done lots of ag brews now with many kinds of hops though. Just trying to troubleshoot all I can

 

[Danscraftbeer]

I'm trying too! It is the search for the Holy Grail. Although I have been satisfied with my latest techniques. Its the ingredients as well as the technique. Its so many points of process. Brew geek science.
Darwin? Fark me. I guess you only have the higher temp yeasts recipes to deal with unless you have some underground cellar, fermentation chambers for cooler temp control etc.

 

[mtb]

If there's one thing I changed that really ramped up the hop "juiciness" in my IPAs, it was ditching the hop spider / hop sock / whatever else people use to separate hop matter from their wort. Hop matter goes straight into the boil and I recirculate throughout the final 30min of the boil with a pump; this sanitises the pump and mixes the batch for maximum exposure of hop matter to wort. The difference it made is phenomenal.

As for keeping that freeballing hop matter in the kettle and out of my fermenters - it's as easy as standing the wort for 30min after reaching groundwater temp and removing the immersion chiller. Hop matter settles to the bottom, below my outlet valve. I then transfer to FV with the pump, no movement of the kettle involved. I put the lid on at this stage to prevent contamination as obviously it's at prime risk for infection - but I haven't had an infection yet *touch wood*

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Just did a little experiment with some Cascade pellets into a fake whirlpool situation to see if the amount yields enough of a charge to give that famous aroma.

I scaled 200gms flameout in a standard 23l batch down to 1gm p/-100ml and tipped this into a bottle. The aroma is fantastic. So the amount is definitely not a problem. Points to oxygen as most have stated previously

 

[huez]

Peter Wolfes thesis on hop flavours will explain a lot if you google it. Here is an extract off Braukaiser's extract of the findings.

1.6.1 Packaging and its potential ability to scalp dry-hop flavor: “The hydrophobic nature of hop aroma compounds makes them vulnerable to adsorption and absorption by hydrophobic polymers”. The most common occurrence of this is in cap liners. The extent depends on the type of polymer. In one study mycrene and humulene were found to have completely migrated into the cap liners of examined retail beers. This is an interesting aspect to those of us who bottle beers and don’t pay much attention to the type of bottle cap we are using.

Here is the rest of the blog
http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2012/12/12/interesting-paper-on-dry-hopping/

I remember hearing dr charlie bamforth talk about this on a podcast, i'll have to relisten to it. Apparently an issue often over looked in the beer world. Another reason to check the bottle on date really, if the bottle has that date...

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

I've got a good freezer for temp control but cellaring isn't easy. It's bloody hot wherever you put them!

I'm trying too! It is the search for the Holy Grail. Although I have been satisfied with my latest techniques. Its the ingredients as well as the technique. Its so many points of process. Brew geek science.
Darwin? Fark me. I guess you only have the higher temp yeasts recipes to deal with unless you have some underground cellar, fermentation chambers for cooler temp control etc.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

1.6.1 Packaging and its potential ability to scalp dry-hop flavor: “The hydrophobic nature of hop aroma compounds makes them vulnerable to adsorption and absorption by hydrophobic polymers”. The most common occurrence of this is in cap liners. The extent depends on the type of polymer. In one study mycrene and humulene were found to have completely migrated into the cap liners of examined retail beers. This is an interesting aspect to those of us who bottle beers and don’t pay much attention to the type of bottle cap we are using.

Here is the rest of the blog
http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2012/12/12/interesting-paper-on-dry-hopping/

What about PET bottles?[/QUOTE]
Same situation if it has a polymeric cap liner, they have had the same problem throughout the food and drink packaging industry, the good news is research is on going to replace the liners. (see page 27)
file:///C:/Users/user/Downloads/Wolfe_thesis%20(2).pdf

 

[yankinoz]

I'm not a massive fan of stupidly hop forward beers but 300 ppm seems much too high to me. I'd aim for 150 - 200 max and that's presuming mash pH is taken care of.

One controlled experiment that touches on sulphate and hop flavour (not aroma) found a statistically significant but not very large negative correlation (-0.44 slope, .05 confidence interval)..

Van Havig, Maximizing Hop Flavor and Aroma through Process Variables, MBAA Tech Quarterly 47(2), 2009.

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

It's certainly a fact that Coke tastes better from a bottle than PET. I don't think that can be disputed. And again different from a can as well, so there's definitely something to it

 

[Markbeer]

My brews are fantastic out of the fermenter but after a week in the bottle the hops disappear. Its not a time thing, after an extra week in the fermenter it's still ok, it's in the transfer.

This will solve my problem eventually. I am not worried what craftbrewers do. We can do things they can't. One vessel no transfer is what we need.

https://www.blichmannengineering.com/products/cornical

As for bottling, I am a bottler, try using citric acid in the mash and sparge, it's helped me and I deduce its because it's a good anti oxidant.

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

I'm struggling to understand how if you're careful not to splash and transfer underneath the liquid without oxygen how any oxygen above the surface of beer for an hour or so at bottling time can absorb problematic anounts of oxygen?

I can understand this easily occurring inside a bottle as beer ferments and carbs, reabsorbing the headspace but not before this. Am I wrong? If so, how?

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

I wonder if this is actually true about the liner? I'd imagine it's actually oxygen instead but, I just don't know for sure yet

Log Kow for Myrcene is 4.33, so the myrcene in 500 ml of beer would reach equilibrium with ~10 mg of a linear alkane*, eg the total quantity of myrcene would be split equally between the two.

Assuming the liner weighs at least a gram, more than 99% of the myrcene would eventually end up in it. How long this takes is another matter.

* the standard is octane but polythene would have the same effect.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

As for bottling, I am a bottler, try using citric acid in the mash and sparge, it's helped me and I deduce its because it's a good anti oxidant.

Citric acid has very limited antioxidant poperties, I would not have thought it functioned as an antioxidant in wort. Did you mean ascorbic acid?

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

So this explains the great smelling IPA cap!

Log Kow for Myrcene is 4.33, so the myrcene in 500 ml of beer would reach equilibrium with ~10 mg of a linear alkane*, eg the total quantity of myrcene would be split equally between the two.

Assuming the liner weighs at least a gram, more than 99% of the myrcene would eventually end up in it. How long this takes is another matter.

* the standard is octane but polythene would have the same effect.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Personally, I don't like the smell of myrcene so no.

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

You'd LOVE my beers then

 

[Bribie G]

With bottling, the original counter pressure bottle fillers that were all the rage maybe eight years ago, flushed the bottle with CO2 first then the beer was introduced from below, and didn't come into contact with oxygen. The best method was to have a bit of foam up to the top of the bottle then cap quickly. You needed three hands and arms to do it efficiently .. I know there are a couple on the forum who still use them but I sold mine after repainting the garage walls and ceilings many times by turning the levers in the wrong sequence. Now I keg.

 

[Markbeer]

You could be right, maybe it's something else going on. When I switched to lactic I lost some fruitiness.

I know Charlie papazian adds ascorbic to his beer though so is it worth a try?

Citric acid has very limited antioxidant poperties, I would not have thought it functioned as an antixodidant in wort. Did you mean ascorbic acid?