I've got ester problems. SO MUCH BANANA

[Fiddler]

The packets were purchased from Ross at Craftbrewer and they made it to my place on the day they were shipped and then put in the fridge until used a few days later.

Either way, I just hope it dissipates over time. Having 40 odd litres of fairly unpleasant beer is a real ******* downer.

 

[Parks]

Telling people not to oxygenate their wort is pretty poor form.

Yeast need the aerobic growth stage at the beginning of fermentation to ensure adequate growth which ensures they are healthy enough to finish the ferment and clean up any fermentation byproducts.

If you don't have oxygen in your wort you will not be getting the best beer from your ferment, full stop.

 

[Parks]

I don't have direct experience with SO4 but with the other Dunkel strains the pitching temp has a massive affect on the resulting amount of banana characteristics.

Also throw in whether your method of reading temp is the same as others (is my 20 degrees the same as yours - most likely not).

 

[Steve]

Telling people not to oxygenate their wort is pretty poor form.

Yeast need the aerobic growth stage at the beginning of fermentation to ensure adequate growth which ensures they are healthy enough to finish the ferment and clean up any fermentation byproducts.

If you don't have oxygen in your wort you will not be getting the best beer from your ferment, full stop.

So Screwtops post (No.31), Page 2 of the BRY 97 thread is poor form or is he talking from practical experience?

Quote:
"A lot of years ago, maybe 2006 I carried out some oxygenation experiments, a search might reveal some of the outcomes. One surprising find was that dried yeast in oxygenated wort took longer to start. Lellemand/Danstar dried yeasts are manufactured containing 5% lipids. So long as you produce 3-5% alcohol beers no oxygen is required.

FROM THE LALLEMAND WEBSITE: When you produce 3-5% alcohol beer this is no problem. It is when you produce higher alcohol beer or inoculate at a lower rate, that you need to add O2 to produce more yeast and for alcohol tolerance near the end of fermentation. You definitely need added O2 when you reuse the yeast for the next inoculum."

There were a lot of similar experiments going on around the same time. It was around this time that Ross mentioned it to so it just stuck in my mind and from the results and advice sounded good to me.

Apologies for the OT Fiddler. Hope the Banana dissipates over time.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Parks]

Hrmz, that is very interesting indeed...

 

[TheBeerKitchen]

So Screwtops post (No.31), Page 2 of the BRY 97 thread is poor form or is he talking from practical experience?

Quote:
"A lot of years ago, maybe 2006 I carried out some oxygenation experiments, a search might reveal some of the outcomes. One surprising find was that dried yeast in oxygenated wort took longer to start. Lellemand/Danstar dried yeasts are manufactured containing 5% lipids. So long as you produce 3-5% alcohol beers no oxygen is required.

FROM THE LALLEMAND WEBSITE: When you produce 3-5% alcohol beer this is no problem. It is when you produce higher alcohol beer or inoculate at a lower rate, that you need to add O2 to produce more yeast and for alcohol tolerance near the end of fermentation. You definitely need added O2 when you reuse the yeast for the next inoculum."

There were a lot of similar experiments going on around the same time. It was around this time that Ross mentioned it to so it just stuck in my mind and from the results and advice sounded good to me.

Apologies for the OT Fiddler. Hope the Banana dissipates over time.
Cheers
Steve

Regardless of that quote, it isn't a negative to aerate (at least) or oxygenate wort prior to pitching for proper yeast growth. I think I will have to do a few experiments and post on it. I've never had a slow start or off flavours with good healthy, rehydrated (if applicable) yeast in a well aerated wort.

Generally yeast will start once the aerobic phase is over. Just because It is quick off the mark it doesn't mean it is a good HEALTHY fermentation.

Buy a microscope and do some yeast cell counts. Pitching an adequate amount for 3-5% beers also depends on the accuracy of your brew day, if your gear is out and you undershot mash temp for instance?

More complex fermentables require more and healthier yeast than a 50-50 malt - dextrose brew as well.

There are a lot of variables, I try to promote removing the variables and aiming for consistency.

That said, I also use liquid yeast 99% of the time.

 

[chefeffect]

The packets were purchased from Ross at Craftbrewer and they made it to my place on the day they were shipped and then put in the fridge until used a few days later.

Either way, I just hope it dissipates over time. Having 40 odd litres of fairly unpleasant beer is a real ******* downer.

Give it time I am sure it will disappear somewhat. I have brewed a few beer with the unwanted banana esters and some with wanted banana esters and they both dissipated after around 1.5-2 months. Some wheat beers tend to loose the banana as the yeast flocculates so either wait or filter..

Edit: And I am not saying you can filter out esters but sometimes the yeast in flocculation can taste like bananas, so just wait.

 

[HBHB]

Might be worth while to check the calibration of your temp controller to be sure it's not out of whack.

 

[dr K]

OP..Fiddler
Your "banana" problem will not have have come from the yeast, properly handled.
SO4 is a reliable yeast that can take a fair amount of hammering, and an excellent choice for the beers you were making.
Dried yeasts are packed full of extra energy bars such as trelahose to kick start them, you can direct pitch, you can rehydrate for improved viability and for extra muscle you can aerate as well. The fact that yu do not have have to does not not diminish the benefits of rehydration or aeration.
If your ferment temps were way too high (say high 20's or above) then you would have problems, banana being the least !!
Given this there is really not a lot room to move, outside of infection...

K

 

[Fiddler]

I'll definitely check that the STC 1000 is doing it's job for the next brew. Although I can safely say that it definitely didn't ferment in the mid to high 20s given how cool it was to the touch.

 

[Parks]

I'll definitely check that the STC 1000 is doing it's job for the next brew. Although I can safely say that it definitely didn't ferment in the mid to high 20s given how cool it was to the touch.

Most of the esters are produced in the yeast growth phase and thus in the first 24 hours generally.

From my reading it basically doesn't matter (to a degree) your fermentation temp after that point.

 

[TimT]

Heh. So I'll have to list all the 'do nots' on this list next time I want to make a big smelly wondrous estery beer. So, pitch yeast while wort is still a bit warm, above 21 degrees, and try to keep wort around that temp for a day or so....

Apparently another influence in big ester production is open fermentation. If you do this the yeast will happily throw up heaps more esters, apparently, than if you'd closed the fermenter up. (I saw this on an episode of Brewing TV dealing with open fermentaiton). A month or so ago I tried an open fermentation experiment of my own, with a saison I was brewing (well, two saisons, but I was fermenting them as one batch to start with and splitting them up later at secondary ferment). For a day the house filled with the most wonderful bready aromas, and after that things started getting a bit more.... weird. Sulfury smells, for instance. Closed up the fermenter after, I think, two days, but it was perfectly safe up to that point since the blanket of gasses and krausen formed protected the brew from most outside infections. They're all bottled and mature now, and I think turned out quite well.

 

[manticle]

Most of the esters are produced in the yeast growth phase and thus in the first 24 hours generally.

From my reading it basically doesn't matter (to a degree) your fermentation temp after that point.

My understanding is that it is fusels that develop early. The type and level of ester production is dependent on the type and level of fusel production but the esters themselves are developed later.

 

[Parks]

My understanding is that it is fusels that develop early. The type and level of ester production is dependent on the type and level of fusel production but the esters themselves are developed later.

Could be dependant on strain and ester too. I know my 3068 is banana heaven within 24 hours (in confirmation of what I had thought).

 

[manticle]

Dependent on strain certainly - some fermentations can be complete in as little as 48hrs. The idea of keeping fermentation temps low at the beginning is valid in any case because even if the esters aren't formed straight away, their fate is sealed by the development of fusels and these will be reliant on temperature (among other things).

 

[Parks]

Yeah, OK - that might be where my reasoning has come from. The first 24 hours mostly determines the ester content even though they may not have necessarily formed yet - cool

 

[Lincoln2]

Was it like ripe bananas, or more like banana lollies?

http://vimeo.com/64558227

 

[Greg.L]

To me banana ester smells more like bubble gum. Some lactobacillus would probably get rid of it, pity the beer is already bottled.

 

[southcoastbrewer]

I hate S04 I've followed instructions too a tee and various recommendations from this site... I only avoid bananas if I ferment it at 12 degrees... Which is **** if your running Ales at the same time with S05... I've given up on it and will try dan star next time I do somthing that needs lagering etc