I've got ester problems. SO MUCH BANANA

[Fiddler]

I had the first taste of a sweet stout and an English southern brown ale that I had bottled a few weeks ago and unfortunately they both ooze banana. :unsure:

I'm trying to figure out what went wrong but I'm just not sure. They were brewed at the same time and they both used S-04 that was rehydrated accordance with the manufacturers instructions. The ferment temperature was kept at 18 degrees in a fermenting fridge for 19 days. I used a pitching calculator and one packet for each should have been enough. Both of the fermenters got a decent shaking before pitching too so that should have been fine.

I suppose the wort was a little warm when the yeast was pitched (~22 degrees) but I didn't think that would make much difference?

Both tasted fine before bottling.

Any ideas as to what went wrong?

 

[TimT]

Doesn't sound like a terrible problem to have.... though maybe not in a stout.

Following so I can find out how to have similar problems! Can't help though, sorry.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

It depends how long it took to get the wort down to your chosen brewing temp.

But as TimT says - I don't see too much banana as being a problem

 

[Scooby Tha Newbie]

Sounds like isoamyl acetate.

Sounds like pitching at that temp then heat caused by yeast fermenting has produced this characteristic. Maybe pitch at 17\16 deg and let the brew heat up naturally. Prolly 18deg should give you a a result your after.

Above picture care of Principles of brewing. Fix.

 

[Steve]

Banana in a stout or brown ale would be horrible.
Thanks for the pics/info Scooby but would SO4 really give off banana when pitching at either 17-22 degrees? Not having a go, its just something ive not experienced using SO4 and I generally pitch when the sides of the fermenter "feel warmish erring on the side of cool" rather than hot. (Opens up myself to mass hysteria by the puritans). I can guarantee ive pitched at 22 or warmer with no bananas using SO4. Its a strange one!
Cheers
S

 

[Scooby Tha Newbie]

I'm not curtain about S04 I've used it (probably incorrectly)and didn't like the flavour profile. Op said he pitched at or around 22deg so it depends how long it took to get down.
It might not have been the temp that gave those flavours. Pitching at 22 though would be where I would start looking.



It's not unheard of to get banana from So4

 

[Steve]

Oh for a virtual taste portal thing. Invent that and you'll be on a winner!

P.S. You don't need to give the fermenters a decent shaking prior to pitching. You don't need to aerate wort when using dry yeast.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Greg.L]

It is strange it developed after bottling. Usually banana ester develops fairly early, I often get it with cider but it settles down fairly quickly. If it is developing so late it may be due to some unusual infection. If you wait a bit it might go away again.

 

[MartinOC]

Ester-production sounds to me like under-pitching &/or under-aeration. Are you sure you used enough &/or aerated sufficiently?

 

[stakka82]

Yeah it's not gonna be the pitching temp iIve pitched s04 a heap of times at up to 27 degrees with no bananna at all.

 

[Midnight Brew]

You don't need to aerate wort when using dry yeast.
Cheers
Steve

Perhaps not when brewing kit and kilo and you fill from the tap with cold water. With any brewing that is full boil you need to add oxygen back into the wort before the yeast is pitched. Aeration has many benefits for yeast performance.

Here is a link to a thread:
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/29969-wort-aeration/

 

[chefeffect]

From what I have read you don't need to aerate wort with dry yeast. Steve is correct.

 

[Scooby Tha Newbie]

If the dry yeast was mistreated it may have had less viability.

 

[hoppy2B]

From what I have read you don't need to aerate wort with dry yeast. Steve is correct.

I think the reference the OP makes to aeration is alluding to the fact that if you want banana esters its recommended that you don't aerate. Hence his aeration should have minimized the chances of banana esters developing.

 

[TheBeerKitchen]

From what I have read you don't need to aerate wort with dry yeast. Steve is correct.

ALL yeast need oxygen to grow more cells. Dry just means you need to rehydrate it correctly, aerate and then pitch. Not aerating can cause a more stressed yeast, which in turn increases ester production.

In the case of wanting more banana you can under aerate, but I'd rather just use open fermentation and have healthy yeast to crop.

You can't over aerate with common home brew techniques, however you can if you use pure O2.

I would leave it for a week and see if it does down, I have had banana in a lager that I pitched warm and it died off a bit.

 

[Steve]

Perhaps not when brewing kit and kilo and you fill from the tap with cold water. With any brewing that is full boil you need to add oxygen back into the wort before the yeast is pitched. Aeration has many benefits for yeast performance.

Here is a link to a thread:
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/29969-wort-aeration/

Ross (Craftbrewer) mentioned on here years ago that you don't need to aerate dry yeast whether its a kit or all grain.....I tried it and it has worked well for my all grains since. Yes my kits did get aerated from the laundry sink tap but my AGs didnt. As with everything...each to there own and all that, if what works for you works then jolly good.

 

[TheBeerKitchen]

Danstar states there is no need, but I would rather follow good practice and aerate with any yeast, as they will use it up either way and it doesn't take that long when you think about how long it takes to chill. If the wort is higher gravity than their pitching rate is for, then you either need 2 packets (gets expensive) or your yeast is going to need good supplies of nutrient and oxygen to repopulate, it would be best to err on the side of caution and aerate.

It's like this sanitisation argument that has been going on forever , why wouldn't you give your brew the best chance at working, these things only take an extra few minutes each, but can be done while other steps are happening, I aerate while I'm cooling, I also sanitise when I put my whirlfloc in, then before I start cooling, I run it through my plate chiller. No big deal.

Most manufacturers will recommend it, and while it may be true that dry yeast comes ready to rock and roll in the fact that it has enough to go forth and ferment, if you are over the specified gravity, or the packet isn't in good health, or any other variable isn't right.. It's not going to be as good of an outcome. It might end up just not attenuating properly, or if the packet was truly dead, ester bombs await!

 

[Fiddler]

Thanks for the help/info.

In regards to aeration. The wort was brewed at my house (can only do partial boils at the moment, unfortunately) and poured into the FV then sealed up and driven to my brother's place where I keep the fridge. So they both got a decent shaking etc. on the car ride and then the FVs were filled up to 23L from the tap and then given another quick shake.

The OGs for the Stout and Brown were 1064 and 1044 respectively. Using this http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html it recommends 1.1 packets for the stout and 0.7 packets for the brown so that should have been fine and doesn't really explain why both of them are chockas with esters.

 

[Scooby Tha Newbie]

It's not oxygen mate that's certain. IMO your yeast was not as viable as it could have been. And pitching at 22 for a yeast that can ferment down to 12 deg are the two stand out issues.


Saying that from what I've read Oxygen is the best way to keep yeasties happy , and some yeasts need it to finish off. Higher Og is a trigger to use Oxygen as well.
Most simple beers dont need Oxygen additions as you should airate during cooling or transfer to the fermenter,even shaking the fermenter will do the job.

I hydrate all my dry yeast bf pitching then shake the **** out of that . Fermentis states its good to rehydrate there yeasts but not nesseray. But thats OT and likley to start a **** storm.
http://www.fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/SFA_S04.pdf

 

[TheBeerKitchen]

It's not oxygen mate that's certain. IMO your yeast was not as viable as it could have been. And pitching at 22 for a yeast that can ferment down to 12 deg are the two stand out issues.

Viability is a big one for esters, and pitching rates don't take into account variations in viability , they just assume the packet is fresh.

 

[Fiddler]

The packets were purchased from Ross at Craftbrewer and they made it to my place on the day they were shipped and then put in the fridge until used a few days later.

Either way, I just hope it dissipates over time. Having 40 odd litres of fairly unpleasant beer is a real ******* downer.

 

[Parks]

Telling people not to oxygenate their wort is pretty poor form.

Yeast need the aerobic growth stage at the beginning of fermentation to ensure adequate growth which ensures they are healthy enough to finish the ferment and clean up any fermentation byproducts.

If you don't have oxygen in your wort you will not be getting the best beer from your ferment, full stop.

 

[Parks]

I don't have direct experience with SO4 but with the other Dunkel strains the pitching temp has a massive affect on the resulting amount of banana characteristics.

Also throw in whether your method of reading temp is the same as others (is my 20 degrees the same as yours - most likely not).

 

[Steve]

Telling people not to oxygenate their wort is pretty poor form.

Yeast need the aerobic growth stage at the beginning of fermentation to ensure adequate growth which ensures they are healthy enough to finish the ferment and clean up any fermentation byproducts.

If you don't have oxygen in your wort you will not be getting the best beer from your ferment, full stop.

So Screwtops post (No.31), Page 2 of the BRY 97 thread is poor form or is he talking from practical experience?

Quote:
"A lot of years ago, maybe 2006 I carried out some oxygenation experiments, a search might reveal some of the outcomes. One surprising find was that dried yeast in oxygenated wort took longer to start. Lellemand/Danstar dried yeasts are manufactured containing 5% lipids. So long as you produce 3-5% alcohol beers no oxygen is required.

FROM THE LALLEMAND WEBSITE: When you produce 3-5% alcohol beer this is no problem. It is when you produce higher alcohol beer or inoculate at a lower rate, that you need to add O2 to produce more yeast and for alcohol tolerance near the end of fermentation. You definitely need added O2 when you reuse the yeast for the next inoculum."

There were a lot of similar experiments going on around the same time. It was around this time that Ross mentioned it to so it just stuck in my mind and from the results and advice sounded good to me.

Apologies for the OT Fiddler. Hope the Banana dissipates over time.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Parks]

Hrmz, that is very interesting indeed...

 

[TheBeerKitchen]

So Screwtops post (No.31), Page 2 of the BRY 97 thread is poor form or is he talking from practical experience?

Quote:
"A lot of years ago, maybe 2006 I carried out some oxygenation experiments, a search might reveal some of the outcomes. One surprising find was that dried yeast in oxygenated wort took longer to start. Lellemand/Danstar dried yeasts are manufactured containing 5% lipids. So long as you produce 3-5% alcohol beers no oxygen is required.

FROM THE LALLEMAND WEBSITE: When you produce 3-5% alcohol beer this is no problem. It is when you produce higher alcohol beer or inoculate at a lower rate, that you need to add O2 to produce more yeast and for alcohol tolerance near the end of fermentation. You definitely need added O2 when you reuse the yeast for the next inoculum."

There were a lot of similar experiments going on around the same time. It was around this time that Ross mentioned it to so it just stuck in my mind and from the results and advice sounded good to me.

Apologies for the OT Fiddler. Hope the Banana dissipates over time.
Cheers
Steve

Regardless of that quote, it isn't a negative to aerate (at least) or oxygenate wort prior to pitching for proper yeast growth. I think I will have to do a few experiments and post on it. I've never had a slow start or off flavours with good healthy, rehydrated (if applicable) yeast in a well aerated wort.

Generally yeast will start once the aerobic phase is over. Just because It is quick off the mark it doesn't mean it is a good HEALTHY fermentation.

Buy a microscope and do some yeast cell counts. Pitching an adequate amount for 3-5% beers also depends on the accuracy of your brew day, if your gear is out and you undershot mash temp for instance?

More complex fermentables require more and healthier yeast than a 50-50 malt - dextrose brew as well.

There are a lot of variables, I try to promote removing the variables and aiming for consistency.

That said, I also use liquid yeast 99% of the time.

 

[chefeffect]

The packets were purchased from Ross at Craftbrewer and they made it to my place on the day they were shipped and then put in the fridge until used a few days later.

Either way, I just hope it dissipates over time. Having 40 odd litres of fairly unpleasant beer is a real ******* downer.

Give it time I am sure it will disappear somewhat. I have brewed a few beer with the unwanted banana esters and some with wanted banana esters and they both dissipated after around 1.5-2 months. Some wheat beers tend to loose the banana as the yeast flocculates so either wait or filter..

Edit: And I am not saying you can filter out esters but sometimes the yeast in flocculation can taste like bananas, so just wait.

 

[HBHB]

Might be worth while to check the calibration of your temp controller to be sure it's not out of whack.

 

[dr K]

OP..Fiddler
Your "banana" problem will not have have come from the yeast, properly handled.
SO4 is a reliable yeast that can take a fair amount of hammering, and an excellent choice for the beers you were making.
Dried yeasts are packed full of extra energy bars such as trelahose to kick start them, you can direct pitch, you can rehydrate for improved viability and for extra muscle you can aerate as well. The fact that yu do not have have to does not not diminish the benefits of rehydration or aeration.
If your ferment temps were way too high (say high 20's or above) then you would have problems, banana being the least !!
Given this there is really not a lot room to move, outside of infection...

K

 

[Fiddler]

I'll definitely check that the STC 1000 is doing it's job for the next brew. Although I can safely say that it definitely didn't ferment in the mid to high 20s given how cool it was to the touch.