I've got ester problems. SO MUCH BANANA

[Fiddler]

I had the first taste of a sweet stout and an English southern brown ale that I had bottled a few weeks ago and unfortunately they both ooze banana. :unsure:

I'm trying to figure out what went wrong but I'm just not sure. They were brewed at the same time and they both used S-04 that was rehydrated accordance with the manufacturers instructions. The ferment temperature was kept at 18 degrees in a fermenting fridge for 19 days. I used a pitching calculator and one packet for each should have been enough. Both of the fermenters got a decent shaking before pitching too so that should have been fine.

I suppose the wort was a little warm when the yeast was pitched (~22 degrees) but I didn't think that would make much difference?

Both tasted fine before bottling.

Any ideas as to what went wrong?

 

[TimT]

Doesn't sound like a terrible problem to have.... though maybe not in a stout.

Following so I can find out how to have similar problems! Can't help though, sorry.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

It depends how long it took to get the wort down to your chosen brewing temp.

But as TimT says - I don't see too much banana as being a problem

 

[Scooby Tha Newbie]

Sounds like isoamyl acetate.

Sounds like pitching at that temp then heat caused by yeast fermenting has produced this characteristic. Maybe pitch at 17\16 deg and let the brew heat up naturally. Prolly 18deg should give you a a result your after.

Above picture care of Principles of brewing. Fix.

 

[Steve]

Banana in a stout or brown ale would be horrible.
Thanks for the pics/info Scooby but would SO4 really give off banana when pitching at either 17-22 degrees? Not having a go, its just something ive not experienced using SO4 and I generally pitch when the sides of the fermenter "feel warmish erring on the side of cool" rather than hot. (Opens up myself to mass hysteria by the puritans). I can guarantee ive pitched at 22 or warmer with no bananas using SO4. Its a strange one!
Cheers
S

 

[Scooby Tha Newbie]

I'm not curtain about S04 I've used it (probably incorrectly)and didn't like the flavour profile. Op said he pitched at or around 22deg so it depends how long it took to get down.
It might not have been the temp that gave those flavours. Pitching at 22 though would be where I would start looking.



It's not unheard of to get banana from So4

 

[Steve]

Oh for a virtual taste portal thing. Invent that and you'll be on a winner!

P.S. You don't need to give the fermenters a decent shaking prior to pitching. You don't need to aerate wort when using dry yeast.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Greg.L]

It is strange it developed after bottling. Usually banana ester develops fairly early, I often get it with cider but it settles down fairly quickly. If it is developing so late it may be due to some unusual infection. If you wait a bit it might go away again.

 

[MartinOC]

Ester-production sounds to me like under-pitching &/or under-aeration. Are you sure you used enough &/or aerated sufficiently?

 

[stakka82]

Yeah it's not gonna be the pitching temp iIve pitched s04 a heap of times at up to 27 degrees with no bananna at all.

 

[Midnight Brew]

You don't need to aerate wort when using dry yeast.
Cheers
Steve

Perhaps not when brewing kit and kilo and you fill from the tap with cold water. With any brewing that is full boil you need to add oxygen back into the wort before the yeast is pitched. Aeration has many benefits for yeast performance.

Here is a link to a thread:
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/29969-wort-aeration/

 

[chefeffect]

From what I have read you don't need to aerate wort with dry yeast. Steve is correct.

 

[Scooby Tha Newbie]

If the dry yeast was mistreated it may have had less viability.

 

[hoppy2B]

From what I have read you don't need to aerate wort with dry yeast. Steve is correct.

I think the reference the OP makes to aeration is alluding to the fact that if you want banana esters its recommended that you don't aerate. Hence his aeration should have minimized the chances of banana esters developing.

 

[TheBeerKitchen]

From what I have read you don't need to aerate wort with dry yeast. Steve is correct.

ALL yeast need oxygen to grow more cells. Dry just means you need to rehydrate it correctly, aerate and then pitch. Not aerating can cause a more stressed yeast, which in turn increases ester production.

In the case of wanting more banana you can under aerate, but I'd rather just use open fermentation and have healthy yeast to crop.

You can't over aerate with common home brew techniques, however you can if you use pure O2.

I would leave it for a week and see if it does down, I have had banana in a lager that I pitched warm and it died off a bit.

 

[Steve]

Perhaps not when brewing kit and kilo and you fill from the tap with cold water. With any brewing that is full boil you need to add oxygen back into the wort before the yeast is pitched. Aeration has many benefits for yeast performance.

Here is a link to a thread:
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/29969-wort-aeration/

Ross (Craftbrewer) mentioned on here years ago that you don't need to aerate dry yeast whether its a kit or all grain.....I tried it and it has worked well for my all grains since. Yes my kits did get aerated from the laundry sink tap but my AGs didnt. As with everything...each to there own and all that, if what works for you works then jolly good.

 

[TheBeerKitchen]

Danstar states there is no need, but I would rather follow good practice and aerate with any yeast, as they will use it up either way and it doesn't take that long when you think about how long it takes to chill. If the wort is higher gravity than their pitching rate is for, then you either need 2 packets (gets expensive) or your yeast is going to need good supplies of nutrient and oxygen to repopulate, it would be best to err on the side of caution and aerate.

It's like this sanitisation argument that has been going on forever , why wouldn't you give your brew the best chance at working, these things only take an extra few minutes each, but can be done while other steps are happening, I aerate while I'm cooling, I also sanitise when I put my whirlfloc in, then before I start cooling, I run it through my plate chiller. No big deal.

Most manufacturers will recommend it, and while it may be true that dry yeast comes ready to rock and roll in the fact that it has enough to go forth and ferment, if you are over the specified gravity, or the packet isn't in good health, or any other variable isn't right.. It's not going to be as good of an outcome. It might end up just not attenuating properly, or if the packet was truly dead, ester bombs await!

 

[Fiddler]

Thanks for the help/info.

In regards to aeration. The wort was brewed at my house (can only do partial boils at the moment, unfortunately) and poured into the FV then sealed up and driven to my brother's place where I keep the fridge. So they both got a decent shaking etc. on the car ride and then the FVs were filled up to 23L from the tap and then given another quick shake.

The OGs for the Stout and Brown were 1064 and 1044 respectively. Using this http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html it recommends 1.1 packets for the stout and 0.7 packets for the brown so that should have been fine and doesn't really explain why both of them are chockas with esters.

 

[Scooby Tha Newbie]

It's not oxygen mate that's certain. IMO your yeast was not as viable as it could have been. And pitching at 22 for a yeast that can ferment down to 12 deg are the two stand out issues.


Saying that from what I've read Oxygen is the best way to keep yeasties happy , and some yeasts need it to finish off. Higher Og is a trigger to use Oxygen as well.
Most simple beers dont need Oxygen additions as you should airate during cooling or transfer to the fermenter,even shaking the fermenter will do the job.

I hydrate all my dry yeast bf pitching then shake the shit out of that . Fermentis states its good to rehydrate there yeasts but not nesseray. But thats OT and likley to start a shit storm.
http://www.fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/SFA_S04.pdf

 

[TheBeerKitchen]

It's not oxygen mate that's certain. IMO your yeast was not as viable as it could have been. And pitching at 22 for a yeast that can ferment down to 12 deg are the two stand out issues.

Viability is a big one for esters, and pitching rates don't take into account variations in viability , they just assume the packet is fresh.