IPA no aroma - yeast or process?

[Meddo]

Hi all, I'm after some advice please regarding my latest brew, I'm still very new at this and don't have any trends to really work with yet (this is my ninth brew).

Full recipe specs below but the summary is that I brewed an IPA with a large whirlpool addition of Vic Secret and Topaz which had massive flavour and aroma going into the FV. I used WLP090 San Diego Super Yeast which from my reading is supposed to be similarly neutral to the Chico strains. Over the course of the ferment most of the hop aroma and some of the hop flavour faded significantly. Beer samples two weeks after kegging (travelling in between so no access to interim samples) had lost almost the entire hop aroma, although some reasonable flavour remained. Dry hops were added in a weighted hopsock at 16 degrees after the primary ferment had completed, and removed four days later prior to cold crashing.

Specifics of the brew/ferment are below, but I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced similar loss of aroma from WLP090, or if there's something I've buggered up in my fermentation process. ALL critical feedback is welcome and appreciated.

Although I'm guessing this isn't relevant to the issue at hand, I had a problem with the brewing of this wort in that I was six pints deep when milling the grain the night before and decided to widen the gap. It wasn't until I was half mashed-in the next morning that I realised half the grain was uncracked (oops). It took 3.5 hours of mashing including a temp raise to 71 deg for the last half hour to get the OG approaching what the recipe required. Everything post-mash went to plan however.

Apologies about the details as images, I haven't been able to get the tables to paste properly into the post.

Recipe:



Ferment notes:



Thank you for any and all help.

Edit: a few additional points not captured above:

• Brewed in a 1V recirculating system
• Whirlfloc and 1 tsp yeast nutrient added 10 minutes pre-flameout
• No gelatin or other finings used
• Beer still quite cloudy/hazy post- cold crash and after two weeks in the keg slow-carbing
• Colour of the beer changed from vibrant orange (as predicted in the recipe above) at the start of the ferment to a darker shade with a bit more pink in it (see below)
• I got a bit of an iceberg during cold crashing where the FV was leaning against the fridge chiller plate (see below), this stayed in the FV though - didn't make it to the keg
• Ferment was completed in one vessel - no racking until final keg
• Some hot break material made it into the FV, this settled in the first day to a cake about 2-3 mm thick
• No off-flavours, just lack of desired aroma and somewhat flavour also

 

[mtb]

May/may not directly affect your hop aroma, but your measured mash pH is a little on the low side

 

[Meddo]

May/may not directly affect your hop aroma, but your measured mash pH is a little on the low side

Thanks mtb and agreed, the lactic addition lowered it a bit further than the BF calculator predicted - does anyone know if this would impact aroma retention during fermentation though?

 

[tj2204]

What sort of flavour and aroma are you getting?

I personally have an aversion to Vic Secret as to me it comes across as dirty pond water.

You should certainly be getting a decent amount of aroma though with 100gm dry hop.

 

[Meddo]

The pre-ferment wort aroma and taste was all juicy citrus, post ferment what's left to me with an untrained and untrustworthy palate is mostly guava and pine in taste, with not enough aroma to really pick anything out.

A mate's Vic Secret single-hop pale, that I tasted shortly prior to this brew, to me was all citrus with a bit of the same guava and pine and absolutely delicious to my taste.

 

[Meddo]

My most aromatic beer so far (the Electric IPA here with tweaks to suit my system) I dry-hopped loose in the FV, however I have had big problems with hop debris blocking my siphon in that and a couple of subsequent brews. Due to that I used a small hop-sock for dry-hopping this brew (also so that I could remove the hops prior to cold-crashing) which I suspect reduced the effect of the dry-hops. I'm not sure though that this can explain the massive reduction in aroma during fermentation of contributions from the late kettle and whirlpool hops.

 

[dannymars]

Coldside exposure to o2 is the primary reason I've found for lacking hop aroma.

Both the hops themselves being fresh and properly packaged, through to the cold-side process and purposeful exclusion of oxygen.

The reason your beer has darkened is also most likely an o2 issue.

 

[Meddo]

Thanks for that dannymars. I have tried to minimise the risk of cold-side oxygenation, I'm not sure if I've missed something though, so some more details:

• Wort chilled with an immersion coil from 80 to 21 degrees in about 15 minutes post hopstand/whirlpool, then pumped straight into the star-sanned FV
• FV is a 30L bucket type with glad-wrap instead of a lid
• Oxygenated wort with pure O2 for ~90 seconds, pitched WLP090 slurry roughly 3-5 minutes later (guessing slurry about 12 degrees due to late removal from fridge, wort 21 degrees)
• Four hydrometer/tasting samples of ~100 mL each taken throughtout the primary ferment from the tap with the glad-wrap remaining in place
• Lag time roughly 6-8 hours before first signs of krausen, strong ballooning of the glad-wrap during krausen phase
• CO2 pressure dropped (fallen glad-wrap) when krausen started to fall
• Peeled back the glad-wrap to expose about 20% of the bucket opening (glad-wrap slack at this point), added dry-hops in weighted hop-sock gently to try to minimise the introduction of any air with the bag (but maybe not enough??) then resealed
• Again exposed about 20% of the opening to remove the dry-hops four days later using the attached dental floss tie-line then resealed for cold-crashing
• Used a 8mm OD / 5mm ID beer line from the tap to the beer-in post of a purged keg (lid on, PRV loosened), took about 15 minutes to fill the keg - no obvious signs of bubbling in the line
• About halfway during filling the iceberg pictured above fell from the FV wall into the beer and made a fair splash
• When the keg was roughly half filled I switched the disconnect to a soft drink bottle with carb-cap, filled about 500 mL then switched to finish filling the keg. I immediately force-carbed that sample in the bottle by shaking with 0.8 bar through a kegking carb cap and drank about half an hour later, unfortunately my memory isn't great (or my notes) but I'm pretty sure that the sample was well short of aroma at that point

Anything you can see that I've buggered up in there?

Thanks for everyone's contributions so far, sorry about the essays and details but I'm really looking to identify the specific flaws in my process. I'm assuming that no-one's had problems with WLP090 muting aromas before, and that it must be process-related?

Cheers,

 

[Meddo]

Further, I used 2016 Vic Secret and 2015 Topaz (both pellets), purchased from a reputable supplier within the last six months and kept vac sealed and refrigerated then later frozen since then. They smelt fine and I have no reason to think that they had staled at all.

 

[Coodgee]

Might be just expecting too much. Those are not super aromatic hops like citra or mosaic. And 100 grams is a medium dry hop. I often find the aroma is still there but just lost in a range of other young beer smells. You might find that a little time in the keg to mature will reveal some more pleasant aroma. Finally, glassware, head and serving temp can all influence aroma perception. Try quarter filing a white wine glass that tapers at the top and have a smell. Try for a .5cm head. Sniff the inside of your elbow before you smell the beer as your own body scent can reset your senses and make aroma perception more acute. Beer judges do it all the time.

 

[Meddo]

Thanks for the feedback Coodgee, I respectfully disagree however regarding aromatic potential of those hops (although not necessarily in relative terms compared to US hops). The Vic Secret single-hop pale that I mentioned earlier brewed by a mate used roughly half the whirlpool and dry-hops that mine did but the aroma level from each was completely different - the pale absolutely burst from the glass as one of the most fragrant beers I've ever had, but my IPA really needs the schnoz stuck in to smell anything at all. There were many differences between the two brew processes so it's tough to draw any conclusions, except that I know that Vic Secret is capable of delivering far more aroma than I'm getting from these quantities. Also that aroma was definitely there in my wort prior to fermentation - I could smell the 100 mL in a hydrometer tube from at least a foot away.

Having said that, the pale was single grain Gladfield American Ale at 4% ABV, compared to my 95% BB Ale / 5% Gladfield Supernova at 6% ABV - is there any reason why these malts might mask aroma?

Re glassware I've been using the Spiegelau IPA glasses so should and do get good aroma out of them with other beers including the afore mentioned pale and also commercials. I'll have a crack at a sample in a wine glass though and see how it goes, whether there's any difference.

Unfortunately re your other tip of aging a bit, I've already added 60g of Melba in SS hop-balls in the keg to try to add some aroma - so I won't really be able to discern how the original beer evolves over time. First serve from the keg was two and a half weeks after it was originally kegged, though, which if anything I thought might be a bit late for absolute pop and freshness of aroma (note that this had already faded by the time I kegged though)?

Thanks again,

 

[Meddo]

Does the aroma from whirlpool hopstands tend to fade during fermentation as a general rule? This is the first significant hopstand I've attempted so I have no personal experience to guide myself yet.

If it's the case that it's typical for that aroma to fade then it may be that a failure of the dry-hops to perform is the only problem, as opposed to the whirlpool contribution fading over time also being an issue. There's definitely still juicy hop flavour in the beer, although a bit less than in the pre-ferment wort.

 

[timmi9191]

I think its hard to specifically answer your question as there are so many variables that may be effecting your aroma.

For IPAs 50% of IBUs at FWH or 60 mins, Late Hop additions are all at 10 mins. I then hop stand at 80 degrees with 3g/l for 30 mins. Dry Hop 4g/l on day 4 day of the ferment.

Do everything possible to keep O2 out and I find the aroma is right on. BTW typically Im using high AA hops known for their aromatics...

 

[Dan Pratt]

I think that dry hopping with bags dramatically reduces the outcome for aroma. Less surface area which equals less contact time to release the oils into the wort.

Id suggest you let the free reign in the FV for best results.

 

[labels]

Your recipe and method seem fine but there is something unknown gone wrong

Ingrredients:
The only ingredient would be the hops, they could be old, not stored correctly, mis-labelled or any combination of the aforementioned.

Method
Your method seems fine to me. It is known that fermentation can drag hop flavour/aroma out with the CO2 taking hop aroma up in it's wake and others getting lost in the trub/yeast sludge in the bottom of the fermenter.
Dry hopping works a lot better when the hops are not in a container or bag of some sort. They generally drop into the trub/yeast sludge during cold conditioning and cause no problems so I suggest add loose to the fermenter.
Dry hopping has minimal impact when the beer is too cold so will do their best when it they have a few days at warm temps before cold conditioning.

That's all I can think of

 

[Coodgee]

Some brews just don't stink like others too...

 

[dannymars]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Glad wrap is not the best excluder of O2 as it's permeable by air. Also, I wouldn't (as other posters have said) use a hop bag, it's totally unnecessary and [/SIZE]may reduce utilisation.

[SIZE=10.5pt]What’s your method for keg purging?[/SIZE]


[SIZE=10.5pt]My last APA was only 2g/L hopstand and 2g/L dry hop and it had a punch-in-the face hop aroma. So, at 5g/L you don’t need more hops, maybe different ones, or fresher ones.[/SIZE]

 

[Meddo]

Re keg purging, after sanitising the keg with starsan, emptying, then sealing it up, I'll hook up the 3 bar gas line to the beer out post and do 5-10 pulls on the PRV. If anything I'm probably wasting a shiteload of CO2 doing it at that pressure, but any O2 left after that would have to be diluted to buggery I would have thought.

I've read that absolute best-practice would be to fill the keg with starsan and then force it out with CO2, at the moment I don't have enough holding capacity for that much sanitiser but it also seems that plenty of people get good results without going to that extreme?

For keg filling after the keg is purged I've vented the CO2 then connected a beer line from either the easy-siphon or tap to the beer-out post using a disconnect, then unscrewed the PRV slightly to allow beer to flow in / CO2 out. Once filled then a further purge of the headspace through the gas-in post at ~0.8 bar.

Yep I think it's pretty clear cut that I need to ditch the hop sock. I'd been having trouble previously when going commando-style with the hops that small bits of hop debris were clogging the disconnects while filling - the hop matter seemed to settle just above the yeast cake and get liberated into the beer flow quite easily. I'm not sure what the solution is here, short of just running the hose through an open lid rather than the disconnect and beer post which means I can't maintain a purged environment in the keg, or tilting the FV away from the tap and leaving more beer behind. Unfortunately I already have significant deadspace in my kettle so I don't really want to be wasting any more beer in the FV than I have to (re the latter option). Any suggestions?

Thanks again to all the replies so far.

 

[dannymars]

I've read that absolute best-practice would be to fill the keg with starsan and then force it out with CO2, at the moment I don't have enough holding capacity for that much sanitiser but it also seems that plenty of people get good results without going to that extreme?

This.

It's hard for me to comment on best practice for plastic fermenters and those ****** taps, as i've used a stainless conical for the last few years, in which it is much easier to keep a closed system throughout the entire process. However, from the days prior to this I used a siphon, as I never trusted those taps after I knocked one once and spilled 5 litres of wort all over the floor. With a siphon it's easier to control where you place it so that it doesn't rouse too much trub. That being said, I tried to siphon directly into the liquid post on a keg once and it was pretty ****. It everntually worked, but I made a bit of a mess tbh.

 

[Coodgee]

Re keg purging, after sanitising the keg with starsan, emptying, then sealing it up, I'll hook up the 3 bar gas line to the beer out post and do 5-10 pulls on the PRV. If anything I'm probably wasting a shiteload of CO2 doing it at that pressure, but any O2 left after that would have to be diluted to buggery I would have thought.

I've read that absolute best-practice would be to fill the keg with starsan and then force it out with CO2, at the moment I don't have enough holding capacity for that much sanitiser but it also seems that plenty of people get good results without going to that extreme?

I fill the keg with water, add an ounce of starsan, mix, then force out with minimal CO2 pressure to give a sanitised keg full of CO2. But the problem is, trying to fill through the out post and down the dip tube with a 200gram dry hopped beer will usually result in a blockage so I often just have to open the lid of the keg and slide in the tube as low as it will go. For non-dry hopped beers I never have this issue. I dunno other guys don't seem to have this issue with dry hops but I always seem to. Maybe it's US05 which doesn't flock so hard. I am considering attaching some hop sock material to the inside of the fermenter around the tap outlet as a pre-filter. I think this would solve the problem.