I Love No Chill

[Silo Ted]

Tell you what I'm going to do. Next batch I'll cube half of the wort, and chill the other half. I'll ferment them both in the same fridge, and we'll see if there is a taste difference.

Maybe you will convert me......

I don't think anyone's trying to convert others. Its just a practical solution for many, which allows more versatile brewing. There's enough NC'd beers winning awards (if you want a measure) to suggest that overall there aren't any negative effects.

If you have not NC'd before, its highly unlikely you will have the same results between the two. Especially if youre draining the same hopped wort into two samples. For no chillers, its about refining your methods to reach targets, and with any new system or step it takes time to get to know your own 'thing'. SO even if you did two batches, if its your first run with NC you wont get what you expected.

You will taste a difference, as its an experiment that has no merit.

 

[Steve]

Maybe you will convert me......

If that happens (which I doubt) can I have your chiller as im thinking of going back to chilling :lol:

 

[manticle]

Maybe you will convert me......

I'm about to try a plate chiller (well couple of weeks at least when I next brew). Always good to try new things/things you haven't tried before.

Think I need to brew two hopbursted APAS and two simpler 3 addition brews and see what difference I notice.

 

[jimi]

I've no chilled for over 5 - 6 years with hundreds of batches done.

Of late, I'm thinking about going back to chilling as I'm lacking flavour compared to when I was brewing no chill in Sydney. I think it's the water here and will be amending next weekend for the first time. Maybe it's the heat as well as the cube stays hotter for longer, but it's just not right for some reason. The water test from yesterday indicates I need around 7 grams of gypsum and 5gm of salt to balance things out. Will see how that goes.

Much like you Duff, NCing has served me well but there is no denying that the aroma and hop flavour is not on par with chilling. Certainly lots of conviences to it and if you aren't doing a noticeable hop beer you don't lose anything, BUT if you want your hops to sing it ain't there from my experience. If I can save enough I'll get a plate and get back to chilling my hoppy beers I think

 

[felten]

If you pull the tea bag out but let the cup sit it won't get any stronger.

That's not entirely true, I have one of those breville tea makers and regularily make up a large batch of tea in it, the first cup is nectar but as you leave it hot for longer it gets darker, stronger, and more tannic.

Completely OT but whatever!

 

[Silo Ted]

Much like you Duff, NCing has served me well but there is no denying that the aroma and hop flavour is not on par with chilling. Certainly lots of conviences to it and if you aren't doing a noticeable hop beer you don't lose anything, BUT if you want your hops to sing it ain't there from my experience. If I can save enough I'll get a plate and get back to chilling my hoppy beers I think

This is something I don't notice but I haven't chilled, and noone I know does beer styles like I do, so there's no comparison for me to make. What are your thoughts on decanting a couple of litres of wort when you are about to pitch, then do a mini-boil of flavour & flameout hops to add into the fermenter?

 

[Silo Ted]

Like making a cup of tea. If you pull the tea bag out but let the cup sit it won't get any stronger.

Not much of a comparison. Tea leaves and hops are quite different beasts.

 

[Howlingdog]

Now that Chap Chap has resurfaced, hopefully for a while, he will confirm that at his last brew day (Altstart, Ross, Me, CM3, Gravity Guru etc, )he offered a surplus plate chiller and no takers - With the ambient water temps hereabouts and especially on sandy old Bribie plate or CF chilling is most inefficient and with our water charges the highest in the Western World, thanks Anna Blight, not an attractive thing. Also it's probably hard for people south of the Border to appreciate, but we genuinely do think before turning on the tap. We nearly ran out of water last year and now the dams are full, but we really did get on board and our water consumption is half that of NSW and Vic per head of pop.
Fine if you have a tank or dam.

As for commercials, they didn't go to flash chilling until well into the 20th Century but used coolships (big open flat pans) and in the case of breweries such as Urquell they were in use until fairly recently. Coolships also oxygenate the wort. Still in use in some trad breweries - here's one still used in Belgium to make wits, geuze etc. Can't see why you wouldn't do a hefe.

View attachment 42280

The big commercials started using rapid cooling when they went into lager production - here's one from around the time of the First World War at Allsop's in London. It's a 'trickle down' refrigerated unit. I reckon a fridgie could make something similar from a couple of old bar fridges. It also oxygenates the wort.
I would guess that commercially the major attraction of plate / CF chilling is recovery of waste heat, the ability to crank out three or four brews in the same day on the same kit, and hence $$

View attachment 42281
Fig. 5.REFRIGERATORS IN "LAGER" BREWERY OF MESSRS. ALLSOPP.
The hot wort trickles over the outside of the series of pipes, and is cooled
by the cold water which circulates in them. From the shallow collecting trays
the cooled wort is conducted to the fermenting backs.

Here is a reason why the commercials now use plate chillers instead of coolships - RAF base nearby spews contaminants all over the roof.

 

[edddy57]

I love NC. Tried the immersion thing but the convenience of the NC outweighs any other issues. Particularly for lagers you can get the temp to the right pitching temp before pouring into the fermenter. No chiller will get wort down to 10 - 11 degrees ready for pitching.

I use the the 15 - 20 mins time adjustments for hops ie.

- Roughly 45 mins boil for bittering
- Favour hops are put in a hop sock and placed into cube with the hot wor
- Do a hop tea when fermentation about 75% done. Add through blow off hole using funnel

At the end of the day brewing is all experimentation. If you prefer increased flavour or bitterness you adjust the timings or hop additions next time.

Cleaning another container isn't an issue. I just give a good rinse, add napisan, bit of hot water and fill with cold water and leave a few days ... rinse and store (no more and 4 - 5 mins). just add some starsan before using again.

Some say there can be an increased problem with clarity and chill haze. I use gelatine (depending on yeast) and then polyclar..... never had a problem.


Eddy

 

[Steve]

I love no chill too

Easy peasy

Instead of 60min, 10min & 5min hop additions I use :-

40min
Flameout
&
15min after whirlpool (5mins before draining to cube)

Works for me :beerbang:

Here's a copy of a suggested No Chill VS Chill hop usage guide

BB, where did this table come from? Havent seen it before. I no chill in fermenters overnight then pitch the next day. Might have to give the suggested times a go next time I brew.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Bribie G]

I run crystal clear wort into my cubes and have never cube hopped due to green gunk, but I assume that would settle out after fermentation ok?

 

[manticle]

Pretty much.

Actually most of it will settle with cold break overnight. I pour mostly clear wort into my fermenters after cube hopping. Tiny bit gets in, I leave most of the gunk behind. What's left drops during ferment.

 

[felten]

You can pour the whole thing in, it settles out alright. I have poured through a sanitised sieve before to remove some plugs hops in the cube but smaller amounts aren't a problem. If I was cube hopping a large amount I would go with a hop bag.

 

[black_labb]

Well, let me see.... I haven't read the other thread, so I'll just comment on how I feel about No Chill.

It works. I allows guys to make beer that THEY love to drink, without the cost or hassle of a chiller or the water that they use. I think it's perfectly suitable for those folks that do it, and love their beer.

I prefer to brew my beer with as much of the "Professional" style and equipment as I can. I feel that professional brewers have had thousands of years to try to perfect a system that balances cost with great beer. Most of the professionals DON'T brew great beer.. but that's not a fault of the equipment.

I have brewed in a fairly large commercial brewery (2000 litre batches), and I have learned a LOT while doing it. a few of those things that were really important, were getting the wort from the kettle quickly, through a chiller, and oxygenating the wort on it's way. Another was holding the beer at an exact temperature during the fermenting process (Glycol chiller jackets on the fermenters.) If anyone would like to see pictures of these very important features, I can supply them.

So, what I am saying is that truly great beers need specific processes and temperatures to make them taste great, and almost as important, consistent. A good Heffeweizen can NOT be fermented at 24 degrees, nor can it be no chilled. You will still make beer, but it won't be the same beer as if you fermented at 17 degrees and rapidly chilled it.

No chill is good, and it works and for the folks that do it an love it, it's the ticket. But a proper chilling method and even more importantly a proper fermentation temperature is vital if you are trying to make great beers.

Yes, I know some members have made award winning beers via no chill. Imagine if they had chilled and fermented at the proper temperature what that award winning beer might have tasted like?

No chill has nothing to do with fermentation temp, I merely pointed it out because I believe it is the second most important factor in the taste of your beer (after yeast selection... and of course hops).

I have two fermentation fridges, so if I don't chill the wort enough, it's still in temp within an hour or so.

I also have a 5,000 litre water tank that only cost me $400 (after my $400 rebate) and I recirculate from that, so I don't use any water essentially.

Tell you what I'm going to do. Next batch I'll cube half of the wort, and chill the other half. I'll ferment them both in the same fridge, and we'll see if there is a taste difference.

Maybe you will convert me......

By agreeing to try NC are you saying that your earlier suggestion that NC is inherrantly limited/inferior is mindless shittalking or do you have any information to give the unlearned masses of lazy NC brewers?

Sorry if thats a bit harsh but your backing of the claim is that you've done batches at a commercial brewery and "learned some things". What is bad about the beer taking time from the boiler to the fermenter? If its bad to take 24 hrs instead of half an hour, why arent the cubes that are 6 months old showing the flaw in a notceable way?

I completely encourage you to try NC. I'm not saying its better but if you're going to say that it produces inferior beer for whatever reason please explain. Being experienced in making beer using a chiller of some sort doesnt mean that you know any science about no chilling. it just means you are comfortable with something else.

Please feel completely free to say you were talking out of the ass if you were. I'm sure I've done it plenty of times.

 

[Steve]

By agreeing to try NC are you saying that your earlier suggestion that NC is inherrantly limited/inferior is mindless shittalking or do you have any information to give the unlearned masses of lazy NC brewers?

Sorry if thats a bit harsh but your backing of the claim is that you've done batches at a commercial brewery and "learned some things". What is bad about the beer taking time from the boiler to the fermenter? If its bad to take 24 hrs instead of half an hour, why arent the cubes that are 6 months old showing the flaw in a notceable way?

I completely encourage you to try NC. I'm not saying its better but if you're going to say that it produces inferior beer for whatever reason please explain. Being experienced in making beer using a chiller of some sort doesnt mean that you know any science about no chilling. it just means you are comfortable with something else.

Please feel completely free to say you were talking out of the ass if you were. I'm sure I've done it plenty of times.

Pete and I have made the same recipes, exact same technique but he chills and I no chill overnight in the fermenter and his beers are better than mine regarding flavour and aroma. Plain and simple. Admittedly I brew with the same hop additions as a chiller does so im interested in exploring the no chill hop additions. Pete rarely talks out of his "ass".
Cheers
Steve

 

[black_labb]

Pete and I have made the same recipes, exact same technique but he chills and I no chill overnight in the fermenter and his beers are better than mine regarding flavour and aroma. Plain and simple. Admittedly I brew with the same hop additions as a chiller does so im interested in exploring the no chill hop additions. Pete rarely talks out of his "ass".
Cheers
Steve

Well theres some information that could have been relevant to making him not seeming to be talking out of his ass. As you say the hopping methods were not adjusted for the equipment so that still doesnt give him a better stance unless his stance is ignorance.

I dont really like to come across hostile like this but he has come across all high and mighty without anything to back it up. If he likes to use a plate chiller that's fine, but it doesnt mean that his method is superior and inherrantly makes better beer.

 

[Silo Ted]

BB, where did this table come from? Havent seen it before. I no chill in fermenters overnight then pitch the next day. Might have to give the suggested times a go next time I brew.
Cheers
Steve

The table largely follows a rule of -20min, easy enough for anyone to follow. The FWH comparison is of some interest, and also conjecture.

 

[Peteoz77]

Well, you see Black Lab, I really don't care if you or anyone else thinks I am talking out of my arse or not. I give my input, same as everyone else. I try to qualify it by saying that I have worked in a commercial brewery, not because it means I am higher or mightier, only so you know that I have assisted in making a great commercial beer.. with chilling, not without. I have never said that NC is wrong, or bad, only that chilling seems to be the preferred method for a large portion of brewers worldwide, and that it SEEMS to give a much better result.

I have also said that I will attempt to do half a batch as NC, and the other half chilling, so as to compare the two... giving NC a 100% completely fair chance. I have no preconceived notions as to which will be superior.

Is there anything else I can do for you to assure you that I feel no higher or mightier than thou?

 

[black_labb]

So, what I am saying is that truly great beers need specific processes and temperatures to make them taste great, and almost as important, consistent. A good Heffeweizen can NOT be fermented at 24 degrees, nor can it be no chilled. You will still make beer, but it won't be the same beer as if you fermented at 17 degrees and rapidly chilled it.

No chill is good, and it works and for the folks that do it an love it, it's the ticket. But a proper chilling method and even more importantly a proper fermentation temperature is vital if you are trying to make great beers.

Yes, I know some members have made award winning beers via no chill. Imagine if they had chilled and fermented at the proper temperature what that award winning beer might have tasted like?

So you are not full of shit aside from the underlined comments from above?

 

[jyo]

I love no-chill. It's just so convenient to be able to ferment when I want.
It is turning out to be a reliable method of brewing, for me anyway. I simply use something similar to the above table in regards to hop additions. In the warmer months, when the cube takes even longer to cool, I reduce my 60 minute additions down to 30.

My first 5 batches of AG were chilled over a 2-3 hour period using an ice bath. Was the hop aroma better? Absolutely, without a doubt.
However, I am still able to achieve fairly reliable bitterness and aroma levels that I am more than happy with by using a cube. Whirlpool and cube hops nearly achieve what a flameout addition does, in my limited experience.

In saying that, my goal in brewing is to have a 3 tier set up in a couple of years that will include a plate chiller. It may not always get used, but having the option would great. :icon_cheers:
Cheers, John.