How Do Wyeast And Whitelabs Do It?

[hazard]

Just to offer up a red herring Wy 1187 (Ringwood) according to the Mr. Malty site was originally the now defunct strain 1742 Swedish Porter strain which supposedly come from the Pripps Brewery in Sweden.

Getting more tangled by the moment.

Edit: Sorry Stu, I just realised your link states the same.

Warren -

But at the same time, Mr Malty site also says that Wy 1187 (Ringwood) is equivalent to WLP005 British Ale yeast, which is from Ringwood - so go figure that one out...

 

[Weizguy]

Anyone who has been on AHB for a while knows that I have some old Yeast Lab strains in my yeast farm.

I have read conflicting reports on the origins of these strains and find that the lager yeast produce different beer to the strains that they are meant to resemble.

How the beer turns out depends not only on recipe, brew temp and vessel size/shape, but on yeast culture method, culture medium, pitching rate, yeast nutrient.

In the end, it's about the beer that you make - the result.

I'm sure that all my (re-cultured) yeasts have started to take on a house character, so occasionally I grab a new smack-pack and trust that the strain has been maintained in a true state. True to the original purchase, if not the source.

BTW, one of the major (homebrew) yeast producers uses malt and the other uses glucose, to propagate their strains.
So, maybe they cannot be compared directly. Maybe it's deliberate.

 

[matti]

At home brew level it is difficult to obtain same results over and over again even with exact same yeast strain and cell count IMHO.

I am sure there are some clever brewers out there that has mastered their brewing to a level where they can achieve results their aimed for most of the time though.

As for commercial yeasts strain over time I doubt that the Porter yeast at Pripps brewery in Sweden is of exact property as it was when it was first cultured and brought to Britain. I would say the Ringwood yeast used in Britain has gained different properties either by deliberate manipulation or by inhouse conditioning over the years.

These days in controlled laboratories the yeasts of Wyeast and Whitelabs of same origin would not differ too much one would think.

 

[~MikE]

These days in controlled laboratories the yeasts of Wyeast and Whitelabs of same origin would not differ too much one would think.

if they were to replace -80C frozen stocks every say 5 years, it'd take decades to change significantly.

 

[Darren]

Speaking to David Lodgson, he says they take into consideration many different aspects about each and every yeast they culture. Those colonies that do not conform to the previous test results (colony morphology, size, fermentation characteristics, flocculation and some genetic tests) are not grown or packaged. As Mike suggested, if stored properly there would be very little difference in the strains over many, many years.

cheers

Darren

 

[Obidiah Poundage]

There is no way that Ringwood Yeast originated in Sweden. Hull Brewery was founded in 1785, and it is a good guess that the yeast has its origins preceding that date. Hull Brewery closed in 1985 and the head brewer at the time, Peter Austin, set up Ringwood Brewery using the same yeast. As he was an early microbrewer his expertise was in demand for helping to set up micros all over the world. The first micros in Canada and America were installed by Peter Austin, again using the same yeast. At least fifty breweries in the USA use Ringwood yeast. It is probably the most widely used yeast in the world, come to think of it.

The fact that a yeast produces a good head during fermentation does not mean that it is a top worker - that is just yeast being carried up by CO2. Perhaps I should have said that the flocculation characteristics get altered during propagation. Many of us in the UK have tried these yeasts side-by-side (almost) with the original from the brewery, and many of the packaged yeasts simply do not cut the mustard, including the liquid varieties. In fact, yeast cultured up from a bottle-conditioned beer behaves more true-to-type than packaged yeast. A major exception to this is yeast on agar slants; which always seem to work true-to-type.

The fact remains that once somebody has used a real-live brewer's yeast, they are usually reluctant to return to packaged yeasts.

Bribie is right that Ringwood yeast would be similar to Timothy Taylor's yeast. It is logical that all the yeasts used by breweries in a particular geographical area would have the same origin. Of course 20th/21st century manipulation and the use of conical fermentors by the larger brewers complicates matters somewhat, but in principle that is true.

As it happens Bribie's original thread on Jim's forum has now been answered more fully.
The Thread in Question

 

[manticle]

I might have missed something but I thought the suggestion was that the commercially packaged supposed 'ringwood' liquid yeast had origins in Sweden as opposed to the actual Ringwood yeast.

That's how I read what was going on anyway.

PS: I wouldn't really call that a flaming either BribieG.

 

[Bribie G]

OOps when I said 'originally' from Sweden what I really meant to say was that the Wyeast version of Ringwood, reportedly from Sweden, would of course have travelled there from Britain at some stage as a 'migrant' and if you traced its family tree back, its great great great x 10 to the fifteenth ancestor would have, one would hope, lived in Hull, and it was just convenient for Wyeast to have a source from Sweden that they could culture up. I was referring to Wyeast's "original" source, not the origin of the yeast historically.

I take the poster's point made on the other forum that the yeast used at the Ringwood brewery is actually a blend of strains and the packaged variety may only have one or two of the actual yeast strains whilst claiming to be true to the brewery's yeast. Good point about culturing yeasts from bottle conditioned commercial beers, as we do with Coopers.

 

[matti]

Ive read the thread and it is all good.
The Norse would have got most thing from their southern neighbours in the first place.

As for brewing with The ringwood yeast provided by Wyeast or whitelabs I suggest you make a large starter, aerate to buggery and stir or rouse the yeast daily.

I've brewed with it thrice in the past and it gives beautiful results.
matti

 

[DennisKing]

Just to let you know not all us poms are Philistines. I`ve used liquids for years now, and before that it was from bottles of Worthington White shield which in the 1970s-80s was available in ever pub in the uk. Not used dry yeast for 30 years.

 

[Bribie G]

I've received a reply from Greg Doss at Wyeast: copy follows, and also you might note that I have made a further request to Wyeast

Thank you for the helpful information Greg. Also on a related point
<on knees begging> 1469 </still on knees begging>
;-)

----- Original Message ----
From: Greg Doss <[email protected]>
To:.............
Sent: Wednesday, 1 July, 2009 2:06:30 AM
Subject: RE: Authenticity of strains?

Hi Michael,

Thank you for the email.

Our yeast strains have been sourced directly or indirectly from
breweries and fermentations around the world. We do not engineer or
modify any strains and only assign an appellation based on the original
source.

I hope that this helps.

Cheers,

Greg


Greg Doss
Quality Control Manager
Microbiologist/ Brewer
Wyeast Laboratories, Inc.
888-WYEAST-1 / Fax: 866-WYEAST-1
[email protected]
www.wyeastlab.com

 

[Fatgodzilla]

Just to let you know not all us poms are Philistines. I`ve used liquids for years now, and before that it was from bottles of Worthington White shield which in the 1970s-80s was available in ever pub in the uk. Not used dry yeast for 30 years.

DK, your reputation in the Mother Land as a leading homebrewer amongst the Poms is accepted as read here as well. From now on you are David, you have slain the Philistine Goliath.

 

[Bribie G]

DK, your reputation in the Mother Land as a leading homebrewer amongst the Poms is accepted as read here as well. From now on you are David, you have slain the Philistine Goliath.

Hear! hear! oh Portly one. And pls don't get the impression that I am sneering at the efforts of my former countrymen - my favourite all time bitter that I'm going to brew as my house draught is a version of Camerons Strongarm brewed with helpful advice from members on Jim's beer forum, many of whom live in the Camerons 'catchment area' the lucky bastards.

 

[Fatgodzilla]

Hear! hear! oh Portly one. And pls don't get the impression that I am sneering at the efforts of my former countrymen - my favourite all time bitter that I'm going to brew as my house draught is a version of Camerons Strongarm brewed with helpful advice from members on Jim's beer forum, many of whom live in the Camerons 'catchment area' the lucky bastards.

And when the sleet and snow hits there, you'll have the shorts on supping cold beer on the beach. Know where I'd rather be !

It'd be great to access some of of these english yeasts (from bottles / wherever) .. can we get them through customs ?

 

[reviled]

I've received a reply from Greg Doss at Wyeast: copy follows, and also you might note that I have made a further request to Wyeast

Thank you for the helpful information Greg. Also on a related point
<on knees begging> 1469 </still on knees begging>
;-)

----- Original Message ----
From: Greg Doss <[email protected]>
To:.............
Sent: Wednesday, 1 July, 2009 2:06:30 AM
Subject: RE: Authenticity of strains?

Hi Michael,

Thank you for the email.

Our yeast strains have been sourced directly or indirectly from
breweries and fermentations around the world. We do not engineer or
modify any strains and only assign an appellation based on the original
source.

I hope that this helps.

Cheers,

Greg


Greg Doss
Quality Control Manager
Microbiologist/ Brewer
Wyeast Laboratories, Inc.
888-WYEAST-1 / Fax: 866-WYEAST-1
[email protected]
www.wyeastlab.com

I so hope they bring it back, I think i could only keep mine going for another 10 or so brews, wtf am I gonna do after that

 

[gap]

There are at least 3 problems with trying to reculture yeast from Imported beer

1 the freshness of the beer
2 the conditions the beer has to endure in getting here
3 is the yeast in the bottle the same yeast as used to ferment the beer.

Also ,there would only be a small numbers of beers imported which are bottle conditioned.

Regards

Graeme

 

[hazard]

my favourite all time bitter that I'm going to brew as my house draught is a version of Camerons Strongarm brewed with helpful advice from members on Jim's beer forum,

Care to post the recipe?

hazard

 

[Bribie G]

Care to post the recipe?

hazard

:icon_offtopic: I'll get round to posting in the DB eventually, however:

3000g Halcyon or Golden Promise
500g flaked maize (or boiled polenta if you don't mind a bit of mess)
200g Medium Crystal
100g Carafa 2

66 degrees 90 mins

500 sugaz h34r:

45g Challenger 90 mins
15g Styrian Goldings 10 min

Wyeast 1768 English Special Bitter

I always get a tantalising bit of diacetyl with this yeast.

 

[Keith the Beer Guy]

I have memory of Dave Lodgson saying that sometimes their version (wyeast) of the yeast will be different from the source brewery because of when it was originally collected. Time has passed and the original breweries own strain has changed in character.

And I also have a vague recollection that he told a story that after an initial negative reaction to the business he set-up that some breweries have actually obtained fresh yeast culture from him after their own strain went off the rails.

happy Brewing,

K.

 

[katzke]

I have memory of Dave Lodgson saying that sometimes their version (wyeast) of the yeast will be different from the source brewery because of when it was originally collected. Time has passed and the original breweries own strain has changed in character.

And I also have a vague recollection that he told a story that after an initial negative reaction to the business he set-up that some breweries have actually obtained fresh yeast culture from him after their own strain went off the rails.

happy Brewing,

K.

That sounds about right. One of my favorite beers when I was transitioning to a beer snob was called Red Hook. It just disappeared. Rumor was they lost the yeast that made it special. I did a quick look and it was about the same time that they moved the brewery so the story may have some merit. Some time later a Red Hook ESB was introduced , not even close to what the old one was.