How do Beerbelly bulkheads seal?

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Currently wondering how to solve the same problem with an esky mashtun that has a 1" BSP thread in its bung hole.

The problem is, I'll have to use a reducer to 1/2" and that will then have the same thread leakage issue you've identified here
 
Stux said:
Currently wondering how to solve the same problem with an esky mashtun that has a 1" BSP thread in its bung hole.

The problem is, I'll have to use a reducer to 1/2" and that will then have the same thread leakage issue you've identified here
Not necessarily. If the reducer is a taper-taper or taper-parallel join, they'll seal fine with just thread tape (that is the recommended way of sealing those joins). It is only parallel-parallel joins that are a problem.
 
Stux, why not just seal up the bung with Selley's Knead-It Aqua and drill a new hole? It's Ross-rated safe ;) Truly though, Selley's rates it totally food-safe at mashing temperatures. That's what I did in my Tecni-Ice tun. No leaks ever. No added flavors of any sort.
 
Well, mainly because I plan to use the esky as an esky still :)

BUT, I think perhaps I still could, just screw an end cap on rather than the original bung
 
Even tapered fittings will still leak without thread tape and tightening the F*** out of it wont help either and if it's stainless, it will probably gall up inside the fitting. The only fitting I've ever got to seal without, an o-ring , thread tape (Insert any other thread sealing fluid/paste or hemp) is a poly fitting as they're maluable and squeeze together and seal (but not always) Caveat Emptor.
Source: I use threads all day long. :)
 
shoobs said:
Just a quick update.

On your advice, I went and bought 4 bulkheads. It looks like they don't make them like your ones any more. Here is a pic of what I got in the post:
attachicon.gif
IMG_20150119_180158.jpg

Just a long nipple, two locknuts, two washers and some silicone seals that are too small for the nipple. The only way to stop liquid leaking along the locknut and nipple threads is to use a heap of thread tape on the parallel threads.
I'm going to return these and try and find another supplier of bulkheads with a solid flange.
Another update. I emailed Beerbelly about a refund 2 days ago, and heard nothing back so I decided to give them a call. The ultimate outcome was that Wayne flat out refused a refund arguing that it was obvious from the photos that the bulkheads did not have a solid flange. He also confirmed that they used to make solid flange bulkheads, but switched to the 2 locknut design a while back to save on manufacturing costs.

Looking through some previous AHB threads seem to indicate they have a bit of a problem with customer service. Most people are pretty forgiving because of the quality of their products. Well, in this case I'm not really happy with the quality of their product, either.

At this point, the only leg I have to stand on is to contact SA consumer affairs and argue that the product is not fit for purpose. It is pretty common engineering knowledge that parallel-parallel threads should only ever rely on a bonded seal, gasket or o-ring to work. Unfortunately that'd put me up against Wayne who argues that they've sold 900 of them and never had a return (I'm not surprised given their return policy).
 
Have you actually fitted them to see if they seal or not?

If they seal, mintox!

If they don't, get a couple fo silicon O rings, large flat washers and don't over tighten. Failing that, get a silicon baking ray and cut a couple of silicon gaskets and use that.

It's really not that complicated - you're trying to fit a bulkhead to an esky. You're not trying to split an atom! Don't look for the perfect engineering solution. Just make it work.

I made my own fittings with a bit of brass all thread, a couple of silicon O rings and large nuts. Don't over tighten and it shouldn't leak.
 
You're making a mountain out of a molehill mate, it was pretty obvious in Beer Belly's pic that it's a weldless fitting that would require thread tape
I don't know if you've ever worked in an industry where you deal with such fittings, but when I was welding/fabricating it was standard practice to use thread tape/glue on parallel-parallel threaded fittings
I've used thread tape in my brewery since I first built it, not once have I had an infection that came from my wort making equipment (only from a problem with wild yeast), 4 years of using this equipment now has me positive that using thread tape is not a problem
 
shoobs said:
It is pretty common engineering knowledge that parallel-parallel threads should only ever rely on a bonded seal, gasket or o-ring to work.
I have no idea where you've got that from. Parallel-parallel fittings absolutey require more than a single o-ring in this kind of arrangement to work. The only exception is when a hard face pushes down on a seal like keg posts, an o-ring is all that's required. There are other special products like Dowty seals that negate the need for sealant, but in any other case it is common knowledge that thread tape or liquid sealant is required. That's hydraulics though and this is home brew. Ever seen a plumber who doesn't use thread tape?
This isn't a 400 bar hydraulic circuit, it's a hole through an esky holding liquid. The silicone o-ring will not squash and seal on the thread like you're saying it should. They won't! Simple as that!

You said in this post that you got it to seal with thread tape. Job done.

If you want to go to extra trouble to achieve the same thing then so be it, but don't misunderstand the simplicity of these home brew products and their reliance on some thread tape to seal properly. Thread tape hasn't ruined the many thousands of brews your fellow forum chums have churned out.
 
This may be of interest to those trying to make the various thread forms seal etc.

Interestingly they also indicate that the "NO" thread sealant is required on a BSPP thread and that it agrees with what Shoobs is saying that a properly designed bulk head fitting should have a shoulder and a gasket only to effect a proper seal

http://www.ralstoninst.com/news/story/the-difference-between-npt-bspp-and-bspt-seals/


Cheers

Wobbly
 
Look at how it seats in the image though, completely different to bulkheads which have the thread running through the nut.
 
wobbly said:
This may be of interest to those trying to make the various thread forms seal etc.

Interestingly they also indicate that the "NO" thread sealant is required on a BSPP thread and that it agrees with what Shoobs is saying that a properly designed bulk head fitting should have a shoulder and a gasket only to effect a proper seal

http://www.ralstoninst.com/news/story/the-difference-between-npt-bspp-and-bspt-seals/


Cheers

Wobbly
A fitting threading into a socket with a sealed face is not the same as a length of threaded pipe with 2 nuts, there is no sealing face to stop the flow of liquid
Apples and oranges right there
admittedly you could design a better fitting that would seal against a sealed face (like brewhardware's fittings) but when nuts and threaded pipe are available from your local fittings suppliers, it's just easy enough to use thread tape
 
As mentioned before, not sure why so complicate?

I've got an all thread with two lock nuts and rings both sides of my pot and hand tightened then a 1/4 turn with shifters and its leak free, no thread tape no sealant. Have taken it apart a few times also. That's holding around 70L of water at 450mm he aight if you want to complicate it by working out the exact pressure on the seal. Got mine from Full Pint no affil...

Also want to second the comment that getting your hole right and ensuring a wall face is far more important than whether there is a fixed flange or not on your bulkhead.
 
shoobs said:
Another update. I emailed Beerbelly about a refund 2 days ago, and heard nothing back so I decided to give them a call. The ultimate outcome was that Wayne flat out refused a refund arguing that it was obvious from the photos that the bulkheads did not have a solid flange. He also confirmed that they used to make solid flange bulkheads, but switched to the 2 locknut design a while back to save on manufacturing costs.

Looking through some previous AHB threads seem to indicate they have a bit of a problem with customer service. Most people are pretty forgiving because of the quality of their products. Well, in this case I'm not really happy with the quality of their product, either.

At this point, the only leg I have to stand on is to contact SA consumer affairs and argue that the product is not fit for purpose. It is pretty common engineering knowledge that parallel-parallel threads should only ever rely on a bonded seal, gasket or o-ring to work. Unfortunately that'd put me up against Wayne who argues that they've sold 900 of them and never had a return (I'm not surprised given their return policy).
You seem to have a lot of common knowledge for someone who can't make the stuff himself Matt. I refused to help you out with this because of several things.
1. You started this thread, and began criticising the design before you had even seen the product, or tried it.
2. You then purchased 4 of them, having stated that it was a poor design.
3. You then posted photos of the product further criticising the design, and questioning why I would make the decision to make them this way, and stated quite clearly that you would 'send them back for a refund'. (Before you bothered to contact us to discuss)
4. You THEN contacted us via email (for the first time) to demand that you be able to return them.
5. You then called the shop, demanding a refund and started the 'not fit for purpose' approach, arguing with my wife at any angle to achieve what you wanted. I clarified for you that as far as I am concerned and given the HUNDREDS of these that have been sold on 4 different continents over the last 5 years with no returns - and by that I mean that no-one has ever called and taken your approach and none have been returned because "they don't work', or for any other reason that I am aware of. You then started insulting me on the phone telling me that I had made , (and I quote) 'a terrible design decision' at which point I terminated the call as I felt you were beginning to take personal pot shots and no longer dealing with the issue at hand and I'm not interested in a slinging match. I did invite you to contact Consumer and Business Affairs myself, and offered to provide the number (which you refused), advising that if they stated I was obliged in any way to refund I would do so. But I have gone to fair lengths to provide good photographs and description of the product, and your statement of (and I quote again) 'the text doesnt tell me that the locknut ISN'T attached ' as far as I am concerned is a bit ridiculous.

I'll also clarify that I did NOT state to you that the product was changed to 'save manufacturing costs', I said absolutely nothing of the sort. I DID say that I changed them because the others were time consuming to make, not that great for what they cost in my opinion, I was never happy with them and no-one wanted to pay what they would have cost to continue making them. At the time there were no less than 3 other retailers selling identical arrangements to what we sell now. In an effort to be able to supply something to the people seeking a solution, I began making them that way myself. 900 or so later, my opinion is that they work fine as supplied or I would not have sold 900 of them.

Coming on here and attempting to blindside a business and damage it's reputation with factually incorrect statements is not very smart. I'm not perfect, and neither is my business - I'm the first to admit that we are a work in progress, but we're doing our best. But I have no obligation to help someone who won't help themselves and ask the person who actually makes the gear before they purchase, nor am I inclined to help someone out who can't seem to be polite about it. We bend over backwards to help people build their breweries in various ways every day, even when they are trying to re-invent the wheel and sometimes use unconventional equipment or methods, but if you don't talk to us we can't help you can we?
The fact of the matter is if you had called and said something like, "Hey I made a small mistake and purchased some of these bulkheads and they're not going to work for me - can we work something out to return them?" instead of getting on here and having a go first - the result would have been different......but as I said on the phone, the onus is on you the customer to ascertain that the product is suitable for you BEFORE you purchase it, and asking questions first is free. So is being polite. It's what the majority of our customers do before they purchase, and as far as I am concerned those customers get a pretty good service.

Wayne - Beerbelly Brewing Equipment
 
For what it's worth, I have one of the Beerbelly bulkheads on my 60 litre aluminium kettle, with no thread tape (apart from the ball valve join) and it hasn't leaked a drop.
 
You are making home made equipment and therefore have to make things adapt. Your Esky was not made for a mash tun and was not designed for hot liquids either, so you can say 'it's not fit for purpose' for making beer. It was designed and manufactured specifically as a cooler and for no other purpose. It was not designed to have threaded inserts put through it either.

Most of us brewers make our own stuff and most of us have had more than one attempt at getting things to work - it's all part of the fun process of brewing and sometimes you have to be just a little bit ingenious (read: putting some thought into what you want to achieve) to make it all come together.
 
Thanks for the response, Wayne. I'll address your comments below.

domonsura said:
You seem to have a lot of common knowledge for someone who can't make the stuff himself Matt.
Yes, that's correct. Just because I can design and use something doesn't mean that I have the equipment or skills to manufacture it. I'd guess at the very least I'd need a metal lathe to turn up the bulkhead design that I'd like, along with some decent BSP taps and drills.

domonsura said:
1. You started this thread, and began criticising the design before you had even seen the product, or tried it.
You'll actually note that I never once criticised Beerbelly or the product you were selling up until post #17, after I had the bulkheads in my hands. Up until that point I was just questioning how the Beerbelly bulkheads were made in the hope that I'd finally found a retailer that sold solid flange bulkheads in BSP. From the response in post #11, one AHBer confirmed that the Beerbelly bulkheads did indeed have a solid flange, so I went ahead and purchased them. I did explain to others WHY I preferred solid flange bulkheads, but at that point I was assuming the Beerbelly ones were solid.

domonsura said:
2. You then purchased 4 of them, having stated that it was a poor design.
Nope, as mentioned above, I purchased 4 of them assuming they were a solid flange. I (incorrectly) thought the locknut to the rear of the photos on the site was actually a solid part of the nipple. Neither of the two images show any evidence to the contrary, so that, along with #11 was why I decided to buy 4.

domonsura said:
3. You then posted photos of the product further criticising the design, and questioning why I would make the decision to make them this way, and stated quite clearly that you would 'send them back for a refund'. (Before you bothered to contact us to discuss)
Yes, I sent my first email to you shortly after posting an update to AHB in post #17. I did not question your decision to make them that way, nor did I insult Beerbelly. I just said they weren't what I wanted, and that I'd have to rely on thread tape for a seal if I used them. I apologise for being so presumptuous as to assume that an online retailer would have a reasonble return policy for their goods. I guess I'm just used to other online retailers that are happy to exchange and refund, as they realise that often customers misinterpret photos and data on their product pages.

domonsura said:
4. You THEN contacted us via email (for the first time) to demand that you be able to return them.
I did not "demand". In fact, the exact phrase I used was "I'd like to return the bulkheads and get a refund. Unless your workshop is able to manufacture bulkheads with solid flanges and a taper thread each end?"

domonsura said:
5. You then called the shop, demanding a refund and started the 'not fit for purpose' approach, arguing with my wife at any angle to achieve what you wanted. I clarified for you that as far as I am concerned and given the HUNDREDS of these that have been sold on 4 different continents over the last 5 years with no returns - and by that I mean that no-one has ever called and taken your approach and none have been returned because "they don't work', or for any other reason that I am aware of. You then started insulting me on the phone telling me that I had made , (and I quote) 'a terrible design decision' at which point I terminated the call as I felt you were beginning to take personal pot shots and no longer dealing with the issue at hand and I'm not interested in a slinging match. I did invite you to contact Consumer and Business Affairs myself, and offered to provide the number (which you refused), advising that if they stated I was obliged in any way to refund I would do so. But I have gone to fair lengths to provide good photographs and description of the product, and your statement of (and I quote again) 'the text doesnt tell me that the locknut ISN'T attached ' as far as I am concerned is a bit ridiculous.
This started as a perfectly amicable request for a refund. I was totally taken aback when it was refused. I even explained I was happy to pay the cost of return postage (which is fair). Yes, I then pressed harder and was finally passed to you. Not once did I insult you, nor Amanda, however.

I did question your design decision to move from a solid flange to two locknuts, and you told me it was to reduce manufacturing costs. In fact, Amanda quoted me $70 for a solid flange bulkhead and you mentioned that they'd take about and hour to manufacture.

I did tell you that I was OK to find the number for SA Consumer and Business Affairs myself.

I agree with you that I should have called you beforehand to confirm the design of the bulkhead, but I also don't think it is unreasonable to rely on other members here for information about your products.

domonsura said:
I'll also clarify that I did NOT state to you that the product was changed to 'save manufacturing costs', I said absolutely nothing of the sort. I DID say that I changed them because the others were time consuming to make, not that great for what they cost in my opinion, I was never happy with them and no-one wanted to pay what they would have cost to continue making them. At the time there were no less than 3 other retailers selling identical arrangements to what we sell now. In an effort to be able to supply something to the people seeking a solution, I began making them that way myself. 900 or so later, my opinion is that they work fine as supplied or I would not have sold 900 of them.
We obviously disagree on the statement about the manufacturing costs. I can understand your decision to switch to the dual locknut and nipple design due to cost competition from other retailers and testing the design yourself. I still think the solid flange design is a better one, but we're both welcome to our different opinions.

domonsura said:
Coming on here and attempting to blindside a business and damage it's reputation with factually incorrect statements is not very smart. I'm not perfect, and neither is my business - I'm the first to admit that we are a work in progress, but we're doing our best. But I have no obligation to help someone who won't help themselves and ask the person who actually makes the gear before they purchase, nor am I inclined to help someone out who can't seem to be polite about it. We bend over backwards to help people build their breweries in various ways every day, even when they are trying to re-invent the wheel and sometimes use unconventional equipment or methods, but if you don't talk to us we can't help you can we?
The fact of the matter is if you had called and said something like, "Hey I made a small mistake and purchased some of these bulkheads and they're not going to work for me - can we work something out to return them?" instead of getting on here and having a go first - the result would have been different......but as I said on the phone, the onus is on you the customer to ascertain that the product is suitable for you BEFORE you purchase it, and asking questions first is free. So is being polite. It's what the majority of our customers do before they purchase, and as far as I am concerned those customers get a pretty good service.
There are two points to make here. I did not attempt to "blindside" your business. My comments all the way through the thread were simply about the solid flange vs. the two locknut design with the intention of finding out which type Beerbelly manufactured. Even when I found that Beerbelly didn't make what I wanted, I just mentioned on here that they weren't what I wanted and I'd ask for a refund.

You're right, I should have contacted you before I purchased online. Nowadays, though, I do a lot of my shopping online through recommendations of others (which happened here), with the expectation that if I received something that wasn't quite like I expected, I'd be able to return it.

One other thing - being critical of a product is not being critical of the business. Had you just decided it was OK to refund, and ask me to ship the bulkheads back, all would be well. I'd still hold Beerbelly in high esteem. Furthermore, me being critical of a design of product of yours should be no reason to reject a refund. What started out as an amicable request for a refund could have ended with an explanation of why you manufacture your bulkheads like you do, an agreement to have the product returned and, better yet, a helpful suggestion on how I could obtain a solid flange bulkhead.
 
labels said:
You are making home made equipment and therefore have to make things adapt. Your Esky was not made for a mash tun and was not designed for hot liquids either, so you can say 'it's not fit for purpose' for making beer. It was designed and manufactured specifically as a cooler and for no other purpose. It was not designed to have threaded inserts put through it either.

Most of us brewers make our own stuff and most of us have had more than one attempt at getting things to work - it's all part of the fun process of brewing and sometimes you have to be just a little bit ingenious (read: putting some thought into what you want to achieve) to make it all come together.
Yep, you're totally correct. This is why I try to design things so they work as expected, and are robust. It's why I'm not using an esky as a mash tun - I have a stainless thermopot. It's why I like the solid flange bulkhead design too, it's less likely to leak.
 
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