High Temperature Hose Selection - Be Careful!

[PistolPatch]

I have noticed some questions recently on AHB as to what hose should be used for no-chilling etc. The answers given have been worrying me for some time as unsuitable hoses have often been recommended to new brewers. This can have devastating consequences as the following experience shows... [No names in the following story sorry.]

A new brewer contacted myself re problems he was having with brewing. I sent him some replies and then, 'palmed,' him off to another brewer who lived closer thinking it was a basic brewing error he was making. The second brewer checked my ground and more but before you know it, this poor brewer had done 12 undrinkable brews.

When I realised this, I felt so sorry for him that I said I would come and watch him do his next brew. The other brewer graciously turned up as well (he was as frustrated as myself!)

We had gone through everything imaginable with this brewer who had, as it turns out, done everything right from day one of his AG brewing.

Pretty much as soon as we arrived, we noticed a dis-coloured hose that he had used to no-chill his wort from the kettle. Upon putting the nose to our nostrils, the answer was pretty clear - it had a real plasticised stink which interestingly enough resulted in pretty much a severe 'kit twang' in his beers.

A lot of new brewers don't even notice kit twang so good on him!

He was using a reinforced PVC hose. These are only rated to 65 degrees so you might get away with them in a traditional, chilled brewery but they are definitely no good for no-chill.

Before you buy, ask your supplier if the hose will handle 100 degrees and that it is food-grade.

As far as I know, silicone hose is the only hose that does.

Anyway, that's all and everything I wanted to say on this matter so you guys take it from here.

Spot ya ron,
Pat

 

[jonocarroll]

He was using a reinforced PVC hose. These are only rated to 65 degrees so you might get away with them in a traditional, chilled brewery but they are definitely no good for no-chill.

While I'm happy to stay the all-silicone route I have taken for my brewery, I'm well aware of a certain home-scale brewery maker that uses re-enforced PVC almost exclusively, without issue.

I'm not saying that it is rated to such high temps, but perhaps there are other additional factors that have caused the issues with the new brewer's hose.

Just food for thought.

 

[katzke]

While I'm happy to stay the all-silicone route I have taken for my brewery, I'm well aware of a certain home-scale brewery maker that uses re-enforced PVC almost exclusively, without issue.

I'm not saying that it is rated to such high temps, but perhaps there are other additional factors that have caused the issues with the new brewer's hose.

Just food for thought.

No issues, but are they no chilling?

 

[PistolPatch]

Unfortunateley QB (wish I was wrong), I reckon the answer to your additional factors query is a 99.9% no. We checked everything. The other brewer involved is a qualified judge / hugely experienced brewer etc and it had him buggered for months until he smelt the hose.

As you say though, there are a heap of breweries that use the same hose but the ones I have seen, chill.

Anyway, I forgot to mention, if anyone doubts their hose, there are two easy tests. The first is to simply put it up to their nostril and inhale deeply. If the word plasticised resonates then you have a problem. The other more subtle test is to pour 2 litres of boiling house-hold water through the hose and then taste the result.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I do agree that you should do the test with boiling water that Pat suggests - and reckon you should do something similar with basically every bit of your brewery anyway... BUT

I think your mileage may vary on the results you get from PVC hose - every brew I have no-chilled, went from kettle to NC cube via a bog standard, got it from bunnings, PVC hose - and I have no off flavours as a result.

Not that I'm saying Pat or his fellow brewer are wrong - just that you need to test things out for yourself and discover if yu actually have a problem.

Me I'm mostly using silicon hoses now and when my current "cube transfer" hose needs swapping out, I will most likely replace it with silicon. But that stuff is expensive...

 

[white.grant]

I'm using PVC hose for most of my transfer applications and have found it adequate, certainly hasn't ruined worts into the cube, but it does have a pretty short service life when transfering hot liquids.

PVC is pretty unstable and will become more brittle as it ages -- this is accelerated when heat is involved (or sunlight). Once the discoloration and embrittlement starts its time to chuck them away and start with a new one. You can literally see that the tubing is dead.

cheers

grant

 

[Screwtop]

Clark Rubber at the Sunshine Coast had a few different types of reinforced PVC hose. One was suitable for water transfer but not storage (meaning that is water sits in the hose it will pick up the plastic nasties). Another was food grade for water, and petrol resistant, water can be left sitting in this hose without plastic tainting. Another is high temp food grade, can't remember the rating but above 100C, I think 120C. This is what I use for transfer in some areas of the brewery and have for years, the rest is all silicon.

Years ago I bought reinforced drinking water hose from bunnings, it had a blue inner hose. The shit melted at the connectors plus anywhere there was some tension on the hose. Bloody hard to get something good for nothing :lol:

Ask questions (then check for yourself) when selecting hose for the brewery especially for hot side transfer.

Screwy

 

[geoffi]

I've noticed that vinyl hose comes in different 'flavours'. Some emit a noxious chemical odour, others seem completely odourless. At the moment I'm using some stink-free vinyl hose for hot wort transfer. I've not noticed any off flavours/aromas, and have never seen the hose colapse or distort at high temps. However, the hose I've seen recently has all been the malodorous variety, so I think I'll be moving to silicon when my old workhorse heads for the knacker's yard.

 

[domonsura]

I have to disagree completely, and I am suprised that you would make such a bold claim Pat. I am aware of one and one only person who has EVER experienced issues with this hosing - and the same person managed to strip chrome of his brass fittings and discolour the brass remaining with his use of extremely harsh caustic chemicals by his own admission, and posted on here about "Rusty Bolts on Beerbelly Hopscreen" which was just plain incorrect and misleading. This person has quoted "Phenolic and mouthcoating bitterness" as the fault, and accused the hosing of being to blame. The same person quoted a metallic taste to his brew samples earlier. Doesn't at all sound like plastic hosing taint to me. Could it be that the same chemicals that stripped the chrome off his brass fittings has then spread metal contamination through his brewery, damaged the hosing with the chemicals and the brewer has been having an infection problem as well? Never heard of a new brewer having infection issues they can't seem to remedy?
I am in fact using hosing from the VERY same roll that the person you are referring to was supplied hose from, and I have been using this brand hosing as hot transfer hosing for 3 years now, have sold roughly a kilometer of it - I have NEVER experienced a taint or problem with it. EVER. I am not aware of a SINGLE brewer who has experienced taint of issues with it. I am aware of FAR more brewers using PVC hosing than I am silicon, including state championship winners and AABC placegetters from both last year and the year before using this exact hosing - one of which is using the same hosing he purchased 2 years ago.

As far as I am concerned, the numbers speak for themselves - if there was an issue with the hosing, it would have been extremely apparent a LONG time ago as I would have had huge amounts of it returned - but I have not, including the hosing that has gone out on the breweries I make that are considerably priced. No room for error there so as far as I am concerned, the statement that there is an issue with the hose is a load of bollocks. There are too many people using it who have experienced no issue. All of them except one.

 

[roger mellie]

So let me get this right Pat.

No chilling through PVC hose - contact time maybe measured in Seconds - into PVC containers with contact time with Wort > 65 DegC maybe 2 Hours or longer.

Hmmmm - Must be the hose.

I'm with Wayne - sounds like bollocks. I have some of this in my mash Tun which contacts with the Mash for 90 minutes usually above 65 DegC - No issues here.

RM

 

[buttersd70]

I use the same hose for both hot water and hot wort transfer, and I also no chill. Never noticed any plastic taste in my beer (and noone else that's tried my beers has either afaik). Even in low hopped, pale beers, where there is nothing substantial for off flavours to hide behind.

 

[muckey]

gotta agree with Dom on this 1 - have used the same hose without any ill effects.......

.... and the only issue I've found with butter's beers, they're a little short h34r:

 

[eamonnfoley]

I have to disagree completely, and I am suprised that you would make such a bold claim Pat. I am aware of one and one only person who has EVER experienced issues with this hosing - and the same person managed to strip chrome of his brass fittings and discolour the brass remaining with his use of extremely harsh caustic chemicals by his own admission, and posted on here about "Rusty Bolts on Beerbelly Hopscreen" which was just plain incorrect and misleading. This person has quoted "Phenolic and mouthcoating bitterness" as the fault, and accused the hosing of being to blame. The same person quoted a metallic taste to his brew samples earlier. Doesn't at all sound like plastic hosing taint to me. Could it be that the same chemicals that stripped the chrome off his brass fittings has then spread metal contamination through his brewery, damaged the hosing with the chemicals and the brewer has been having an infection problem as well? Never heard of a new brewer having infection issues they can't seem to remedy?
I am in fact using hosing from the VERY same roll that the person you are referring to was supplied hose from, and I have been using this brand hosing as hot transfer hosing for 3 years now, have sold roughly a kilometer of it - I have NEVER experienced a taint or problem with it. EVER. I am not aware of a SINGLE brewer who has experienced taint of issues with it. I am aware of FAR more brewers using PVC hosing than I am silicon, including state championship winners and AABC placegetters from both last year and the year before using this exact hosing - one of which is using the same hosing he purchased 2 years ago.

As far as I am concerned, the numbers speak for themselves - if there was an issue with the hosing, it would have been extremely apparent a LONG time ago as I would have had huge amounts of it returned - but I have not, including the hosing that has gone out on the breweries I make that are considerably priced. No room for error there so as far as I am concerned, the statement that there is an issue with the hose is a load of bollocks. There are too many people using it who have experienced no issue. All of them except one.

Can you explain the problem going away after the hose was replaced with silicon?

I'm not in the business of making accusations, and sure I am an inexperienced brewer - which is why I did manage to strip brass nuts on my hopscreen because I was over-doing my cleaning routine trying to get to the root of the problem. And as for my varying accounts of the tastes I was experiencing - its hard to describe a taste when it doesnt fit into one of the common off-flavour categories, most of which I havent yet experienced. I have been through the mill trying to fix this problem that has been plaguing me since Xmas.

All I can suggest is that I send a piece of the hose back and you can test it out yourself. I'm not here to cause trouble, and I certainly haven't been bagging your hose on the forums. I brought my concern over the hose to your attention directly as I was only just trying to get on track. But I don't think I deserve to be treated like an idiot - as your post suggests.

 

[Fents]

threads now bookmarked.

 

[user 384]

All I can suggest is that I send a piece of the hose back and you can test it out yourself.

Send the hose to an impartial third party. Get them to report back.

Cheers
MAH

 

[Adamt]

Is it possible that the PVC hose, which was discoloured and stinky (ALARM BELLS HERE?!), was just not clean?

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

I suggest you ring Pirtek the supplier and ask them about its use in above 65C applications.
See what they say.
GB

 

[T.D.]

I have been using non-reinforced PVC hose in my brewery for years. The last lot I got actually does smell a bit plasticy and that did concern me a little bit, but due to my laziness I haven't replaced it and have done well over 10 brews with it, none of which have even a remote plastic taint to them. And that's with a hose that does actually smell like plastic.

I think more brewers use PVC hose than silicone, yet you never hear of people having issues with plastic taint. Not saying it isn't possible, but its extremely unlikely in my view.

Edit: I should probably add that I have had no experience with Beerbelly hoses, so my findings above are just for the standard Bunnings-style PVC stuff. Having said all this, I will eventually get some silicone hose to use instead.

 

[Leigh]

Can you explain the problem going away after the hose was replaced with silicon?

I'm not in the business of making accusations, and sure I am an inexperienced brewer - which is why I did manage to strip brass nuts on my hopscreen because I was over-doing my cleaning routine trying to get to the root of the problem. And as for my varying accounts of the tastes I was experiencing - its hard to describe a taste when it doesnt fit into one of the common off-flavour categories, most of which I havent yet experienced. I have been through the mill trying to fix this problem that has been plaguing me since Xmas.

All I can suggest is that I send a piece of the hose back and you can test it out yourself. I'm not here to cause trouble, and I certainly haven't been bagging your hose on the forums. I brought my concern over the hose to your attention directly as I was only just trying to get on track. But I don't think I deserve to be treated like an idiot - as your post suggests.

Simple chemistry answer...if you stripped the metal with your cleaning process (I assume you were using hot concentrated caustic), then you probably de-plasticised the tubing (is it rough on the inside?)...it will then absorb anything that goes through it and release that (dissolved metals etc) and other plastic components into your brews...

Would also explain the "varied" tastes of each brew as it would depend on what went through the hose prior to brewing...

 

[eamonnfoley]

Simple chemistry answer...if you stripped the metal with your cleaning process (I assume you were using hot concentrated caustic), then you probably de-plasticised the tubing (is it rough on the inside?)...it will then absorb anything that goes through it and release that (dissolved metals etc) and other plastic components into your brews...

Would also explain the "varied" tastes of each brew as it would depend on what went through the hose prior to brewing...

I had the problem from the very first brew with the hose - long before I even thought about using caustic. And the hose never came near the caustic anyway.

The tastes weren't varied - it was my description that varied as I tried to explain it more effectively.

I'm just happy the problem is solved.