Help!..no Malt Character In Darker Beers!

[scrumpy]

I'm having trouble using darker malts!!! its very frustrating all my milds, brown ales and a stout i've made are nice clean beers but they just seem to lack any of the "darker" malt character, they just seem a little thinner and not as full flavoured as my paler brews.

I've tried mashing higher, maybe its got something to do with the water chem here in Frankston?? am i over sparging? maybe im adding too much top water into the kettle, for a 10.50ish beer i collect about 23L into the kettle, then top up to 34L to finish with 23L at the end of my boil.

I dont know what the deal is. Help!!

 

[Supra-Jim]

Serving temp too cold? Too much chill will certainly mute malt flavours.

Cheers SJ

 

[Pennywise]

Post up the recipes, will give more of an idea what's going on

 

[HoppingMad]

Yep, it could be:

- Your grain bill in terms of quantities or types used (too little?)
- Too much dark grain, which creates astringency as strong roasted malt flavours collide - often you only need a small amount of this stuff for it to shine through.
- Your choice of hop and quantity - Some hops can squash malt flavour, particularly when over-utilised.
- Hopping rates that go way beyond 45IBU. Many dark beers don't need to be hopped above 30 or there abouts, but depends on the style. You'll find Coopers stout sits at around 41 IBU, and most Guinness clone recipes around 40IBU according to books I've got (Clonebrews & BYO Recipes). Many other styles not as big as stouts will have IBUs in their 20s. The only exception perhaps is American Brown where the sky can often be the limit.
- Water treatment, particularly if your water is high in carbonates can also be necessary to get the grain goodness out. Some sodium bicarbonate or calcium carbonate might be needed, but you'd need to know your water.

Here's a great byo article if you're curious about water treatment and do find out your local water is high in carbonates. Scroll down to the section called 'carbonates in water' on this article:
Porter Article from BYO

Cheers,

Hopper.

 

[scrumpy]

thanks for the responses guys!

im def not drinking too cold i often drink straight from storage of let my pint warm up if it comes from the kegs.

here are my last two brown brews...



BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: A hint of Jaggery Brown
Brewer: Daniel
Asst Brewer:
Style: Southern English Brown Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L
Boil Size: 33.63 L
Estimated OG: 1.040 SG
Estimated Color: 39.5 EBC
Estimated IBU: 20.0 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
Boil Time: 75 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
2.51 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) Grain 69.69 %
0.28 kg Bairds Brown Malt (128.1 EBC) Grain 7.82 %
0.28 kg Special B Malt (354.6 EBC) Grain 7.82 %
0.17 kg Weyermann Cara Pils (2 Row) Ger (5.0 EBC) Grain 4.85 %
0.07 kg Bairds Chocolate Malt (1200.0 EBC) Grain 2.04 %
29.16 gm Goldings, East Kent [4.80 %] (60 min) Hops 17.1 IBU
13.38 gm Goldings, East Kent [4.80 %] (10 min) Hops 2.9 IBU
0.28 kg Jaggery (0.0 EBC) Sugar 7.78 %
1 Pkgs London Ale III (Wyeast Labs #1318) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Temperature Mash, 1 Step, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 3.32 kg
----------------------------
Temperature Mash, 1 Step, Medium Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Saccharification Add 8.65 L of water at 78.2 C 67.8 C
10 min Mash Out Heat to 75.6 C over 10 min 75.6 C


BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: mild one
Brewer: Daniel
Asst Brewer:
Style: Mild
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L
Boil Size: 31.94 L
Estimated OG: 1.036 SG
Estimated Color: 39.1 EBC
Estimated IBU: 22.0 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
Boil Time: 75 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
2.15 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) Grain 67.80 %
0.52 kg Bairds Crystal Malt (150.0 EBC) Grain 16.42 %
0.16 kg Joe White Chocolate Malt (700.0 EBC) Grain 5.05 %
37.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [4.80 %] (60 min) Hops 22.0 IBU
0.34 kg Dark Jaggery Suger (98.5 EBC) Sugar 10.73 %
1 Pkgs London ESB Ale (Wyeast Labs #1968) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 2.83 kg
----------------------------
Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Medium Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
30 min Protein Rest Add 7.37 L of water at 56.3 C 50.0 C
45 min Saccharification Heat to 67.8 C over 15 min 67.8 C
10 min Mash Out Heat to 75.6 C over 10 min 75.6 C


Notes:
------
primary 8 days crash chilled and dry hopped 12gms E.K on day 8

--------------------------------------------------------------------BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: mild one
Brewer: Daniel
Asst Brewer:
Style: Mild
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L
Boil Size: 31.94 L
Estimated OG: 1.036 SG
Estimated Color: 39.1 EBC
Estimated IBU: 22.0 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
Boil Time: 75 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
2.15 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) Grain 67.80 %
0.52 kg Bairds Crystal Malt (150.0 EBC) Grain 16.42 %
0.16 kg Joe White Chocolate Malt (700.0 EBC) Grain 5.05 %
37.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [4.80 %] (60 min) Hops 22.0 IBU
0.34 kg Dark Jaggery Suger (98.5 EBC) Sugar 10.73 %
1 Pkgs London ESB Ale (Wyeast Labs #1968) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 2.83 kg
----------------------------
Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Medium Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
30 min Protein Rest Add 7.37 L of water at 56.3 C 50.0 C
45 min Saccharification Heat to 67.8 C over 15 min 67.8 C
10 min Mash Out Heat to 75.6 C over 10 min 75.6 C


Notes:
------
primary 8 days crash chilled and dry hopped 12gms E.K on day 8

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Jimboley]

Maybe Aromatic Malt will help? I found 200g will give a real malt punch.

 

[sama]

Your recipes,to me ,dont seem they would produce very malty beers,not to say they are bad,they seem balanced,quality ingredients etc.Crystals ,browns dont,to me anyhow,seem tp produce much "maltiness",more they give my beers a sweet or cookie/biscuit or burnt tofee taste etc(depending on what is used ).To me you arent using enough base malt.3kg total malt in a recipe,in my experience, is fark all when doing a 23 litre batch. Id say go for more base malt(chuck another kilo of otter in) or add some munich.More marris should produce you a "maltier" beer, in the traditional sense anyhow.Dont get to down on ya beers mate,i find most homebrewers are pretty harsh markers of there own product,and when laments ^_^ have a taste of them they are pretty impressed!!!

 

[Wisey]

Mate, one base malt thats malty as all hell is Munich..... It can be over powering in lighter beers

 

[seemax]

+1 for the munich (dark even) , plus some of the Wey Cara-x varieties

 

[Barry]

To get the maltiness I want in low gravity beers I use the no sparge method. Inefficient re % but it get the results. Approximately if I normally want an OG 1.040 I would use a total of 4 kg grain for 30L preboil. With no sparge I would use 6 kg, mash at 68-70oC, collect only 20L and top up with 10L of the "sparge water".
I also agree with others re the use of maris otter, vienna, munich, carared, caraaroma, caramunich, caramunich, aromatic, biscuit, English crystals etc. (maybe not all in the one beer).
I would also use Irish or Scottish yeast (I really like WLP004) for malty beers.
Hope this helps.