Head retention trouble shooting

[kaiserben]

I've been getting underwhelming head retention in beers I've crash chilled. I bulk prime and bottle the beer while still cold.

It's not such an issue for American Pale Ales & IPAs because the hops help with foam stability, but it is a big problem with my lagers (which also sit chilled in the fermenter for much longer than Pales & IPAs do, so there's a slight chance that's the problem, although I doubt it).

I've done some initial trouble-shooting (such as making sure my mash steps suited foam stability and also that my grains include something to boost foam, like including ~5% CaraPils).

After some experimenting I think I can also rule out crashing too quickly (because I chilled one batch so very slowly, over the course of 7 days, to go from 18C to 1C - and it still had noticeably poor head retention).

What I think is most likely the problem is that my bulk primed beer is going into bottles cold. And thus the yeast and sugar tends to settle. Over the next couple of weeks I always take each bottle and invert it and gently swirl the upside-down bottle to let the yeast & sugar mix a bit (do this maybe 2 times over 2 weeks).

Does anyone have some tips on how to boost head retention on bottled lagers? Or spot something in my process that could be changed?

If all else fails, I'm considering adding fresh yeast to the bottles (like CBC-1). I might even give krausening a go if I can time things right. But I'd rather a more simple solution.

 

[kaiserben]

I should also say that there is perhaps a bit of under carbonation happening too (although I don't like my beers too carbonated, so tend to keep them at the lower end of style guidelines). I did go for a higher carb level on my most recent batch (a Munich Dunkel carbed to 2.8 volumes CO2 instead of my preferred 2.5 volumes), but after trying a one a few weeks after bottling the poor head retention issue remains.

 

[Rocker1986]

Properly dissolved sugar won't settle out just because the beer is cold. It needs to reach saturation point for that to happen. Do you wash your beer glasses in detergent? Maybe there is some residual on them that is killing the head. My experience isn't empirical proof of anything but I've never had any issues with head retention from beers that were cold crashed and bottled while still cold. Some bottles I did from my most recent lager (after kegging most of it) sat in the bottle at 0C for two days straight after bottling, then carbonated in 4 days when they warmed up, and the beer has decent head retention. No Carapils in that recipe either. Nothing about your process seems to really stick out either (to me anyway, someone else may pick up on something) :unsure: Do you do protein rests in your mashes? Apparently this can have detrimental effects on the head.

 

[kaiserben]

Definitely not a dirty/detergenty glass problem - because different beers don't have same problem when drinking during the same session.

My mash steps tend to be:
55C for 10 mins
Low 60sC main rest for ~50 mins
72C for 30 mins
75.5C mash out for 10 mins.

 

[kaiserben]

I've got one other idea: I've been using minimal amounts of high AA Magnum hops for bittering rather than large amounts of low AA hops. Wondering if I use a low AA, noble hop (and thus need quite a bit more of it to achive same level of bitterness), whether that might boost head retention.

EDIT:
For example, last batch had FWH addition of 11g Magnum (as well as 10g Tettnang at 10 mins), so only 21g total hops.
But if I switched to all Tettnang it'd be more like FWH of 40g (and then the 10g at 10 mins), so 50g total hops.

 

[themonkeysback]

Definitely not a dirty/detergenty glass problem - because different beers don't have same problem when drinking during the same session.

My mash steps tend to be:
55C for 10 mins
Low 60sC main rest for ~50 mins
72C for 30 mins
75.5C mash out for 10 mins.

I think there is some chance you are degrading your head forming proteins with you 55 degree step, and maybe the hops in you pales/IPA are offsetting this. In the OP it also sounds like you are leaving lagers on the primary yeast cake longer? I always find the times where I am lazy and leave a beer on the yeast cake for many weeks before kegging the head formation/stability is poorer. I think it is unlikely it is due to crash chilling.

Adam.

 

[kaiserben]

Next batch I will take out that 55C step and see what happens.

In the OP it also sounds like you are leaving lagers on the primary yeast cake longer?

Yeah. For Ales/IPAs I'll leave it just a few days. For lagers I've tried leaving it at 7 days, but these days I'm choosing to leave it for more like 21 days. (head retention results have been similar, whether it was 7 or 21 days).

 

[n87]

I do much the same as OP, and dont have a problem with head... retention on my bottled beers.
From memory my porter was mashed in at ~40 as the water was heating up, and stopped at 60 something for the main step
Lagered for 8 weeks in primary after ~2 weeks fermenting
bottled cold, bulk primed
beautiful luscious tight head.

I seem to find that if I leave them in the bottle a little longer, the head seems get better.

I keg now, so I am only bottling big and swap beers.

Simply, I cant see any reason, from your listed steps, that you wouldn't have lovely head.
There is one thing however I seem to remember... is that a short ~40C step may help?

 

[MHB]

I just finished a re-read of Foam by Charlie Bamforth, great read and based on it, I'm going to say that there are two sides to the problem.
First is Head Building ingredients and processes.
Second is Head Destroying ingredients and processes.

Would need a hell of a lot more information than provided to be anything like confidant of giving good advice, but will lob in a couple of the big ones
Carbonation on speck for style, too long a protein rest, too short or long a boil, mash pH, as above glasses, try a different cleaner, clean lines, kegs and taps with a good line cleaner (I use sodium perk), too much hot break, yeast health, oils (lipids) getting into the process (mill lube...), infections...

More hops do improve foam but any balanced beer should have enough for respectable FOB
Add 2ppm of Zinc added at packaging will help, you can also add head improvers like PGA (propylene glycol alginate)

In the OP you said "head retention", if the beer is forming a head on dispense, you can skip some of the above.
The recommended starting point would be protein content (look at adjuncts, pH and mash regime). Lipids as head destroyers (glass cleaning, mash pH mash temperature.
Mark

Couple of posts while I was typing, agree with themonkeyback, with half decent malt skip the protein rest.
M
Another bite
There at several Proteases active in the mash temperature/pH range, of the three common ones one of them will still be working in the low 60oC's, combine that with a 10 minute 55oC rest and I suspect that's where I would start.
Try mashing in at 63-65oC for not more than 20 minutes than heat or add some boiling water to move to around 65oC for 30 minutes or so.
M

 

[manticle]

55 degree rest for half that time, 72 for a third of the time.

 

[kaiserben]

There at several Proteases active in the mash temperature/pH range, of the three common ones one of them will still be working in the low 60oC's, combine that with a 10 minute 55oC rest and I suspect that's where I would start.

Will definitely be changing my mash schedule around then.

But going back over all my previous batches, I noticed one, which also poor head formation & retention, a Traditional Bock where my mash schedule is recorded as:

68C for 40 mins
72C for 30 mins
76C for 10 mins

and I included a little note to myself: "Avoid peptidase range of 45-60C to avoid head retention issues."

 

[MHB]

Ok, couple of more questions
Brewing method (BIAB, 3V, brewing machine...) how is the mash heated
Malt and how/when cracked
Water Chemistry, you haven't filled in location, so what water are you using, ant additions.
Mash pH linked to water chemistry.
Clarity of sweet water going to the kettle, are you boiling a turbid wort
Boil time and vigor, are you getting 8%+ evaporation
Wort and trub separation, are you being greedy and getting a lot of hot break into your fermenter.
Is the yeast fresh and healthy, is the beer spending too long in contact with the yeast cake (over 14 days from start)
Condition, is there enough fizz.

Mark

 

[kaiserben]

Answers in blue.

Ok, couple of more questions
Brewing method (BIAB, 3V, brewing machine...) how is the mash heated = Grainfather
Malt and how/when cracked = Malt from LHBS (one of the sponsors here, I believe) and they crack it for me (for the Grainfather), and vacuum seal it in bags. I tend to get 3 or 4 batches sent to me in one delivery, then brew with them every 2nd weekend.
Water Chemistry, you haven't filled in location, so what water are you using, ant additions.
Mash pH linked to water chemistry. = I'm in Sydney. Water source is Potts Hill. I use EZ Water to predict mash pH (although I don't physically measure pH myself) and to get my Ca, Mg, etc into the suggested ranges. Room temp Mash pH for most of these lagers was predicted as 5.46 or 5.47 after chemical additions.
Clarity of sweet water going to the kettle, are you boiling a turbid wort = I haven't paid much attention to pre-boil wort clarity, but I'd think the GF does a good job producing fairly clear wort.
Boil time and vigor, are you getting 8%+ evaporation = For lagers, usually with plenty of pils malts in them, I'm generally boiling for 90 minutes. Definitely more than enough boil off there.
Wort and trub separation, are you being greedy and getting a lot of hot break into your fermenter. = I might be getting greedy (often tipping the GF at the end, but stopping if the wort going to fermenter starts to look cloudy), and I'm not sure how well the GF filter works at times.
Is the yeast fresh and healthy, is the beer spending too long in contact with the yeast cake (over 14 days from start) = The yeast is always via a starter (or series of starters), crash-chilled first and with spent wort discarded. Yeast cell numbers predicted via Yeastcalculator.com. And yes, I do often it on the cake longer than 14 days.
Condition, is there enough fizz. = For my tastes yes, but probably a little under-carbed for style.

Mark

 

[manticle]

Will definitely be changing my mash schedule around then.
But going back over all my previous batches, I noticed one, which also poor head formation & retention, a Traditional Bock where my mash schedule is recorded as:

68C for 40 mins
72C for 30 mins
76C for 10 mins

and I included a little note to myself: "Avoid peptidase range of 45-60C to avoid head retention issues."

Again, 72 rest which should promote retention is too long. Also mash out should be 78, not 76.

As MHB says, there are potentially a lot of factors but your extended rests in high 50s and low 70s stand out to me.

I rest for 5 mins at 55 and 10 at 72. The head retention since I started this (particularly 72) is noticeable and quite different looking to previous. Rest too long and you'll degrade the proteins too much.

 

[kaiserben]

Got it. I might just go with a main rest ~65C and mash out.

(The instructions for the Grainfather are to mash out at 75C)

 

[manticle]

Alpha will be denaturing at 75 but not immediately. Pretty rapidly destroyed above 77.8 from memory.
de Clerck suggests 80 is a sure bet. I go for 78.

Next mash, try single infusion at 65-66, run straight to kettle* and see how it goes.

Then start bringing in specific steps to note positive/negative effects.

I love stepping but do it for a reason.

*straight as in no mashout - still recirculate as per normal.

 

[Bribie G]

I BIAB / no chill mostly UK ales, and unless I am doing a proper lager, I invariably do a single infusion mash at 67 ish, raise the bag gently and ramp up to boil. So the grain isn't subjected to mashout or rough handling. The only time I use Carapils is in lagers, and I only occasionally use wheat malt in ales. My last sack lasted me four years till this April and it was originally bought from a certain well known gent at Islington. h34r:

Then, using BrewBright and a good 20 min stand, I make sure that little or no hot break goes into the cube. If anything I go big on the length and leave around 3L in the urn after I've filled the cubes. Most of that goes into Schott bottles for overnight cooling and the clear wort is harvested for yeast starting, or simply added into the FV minus trub.

I should mention that I use tank water with appropriate salt additions per style.

Interesting about the possibility of heavy hopping killing head, I don't massively hop - most of my ales I aim for around mid 30s IBU if that, with a bit of cube and dry hopping.

Generally I end up with annoying persistent head - the bloody stuff knows when I've just mowed, settle you ******* :huh: :huh:

Not engaging in a high pissing contest, hope my contribution could help.

Basically, as far as I can tell:

Gentle BIAB handling of grain
Clear wort into FV
Not masses of hop oils in the recipe.

Beer o'clock so I shot this ESB at exactly one, two and three (hic) minute intervals after pouring.

 

[MHB]

Sounds like most things are under control, as above, the standout for me is the length of time you mash coolish allowing too much protein degradation.

I would do a simple 100% or close to it pilsner malt (buy Weyermann), mash at 65oC or close to it for 1 hour, step to just under 80oC for mashout.
Add a touch of acid malt (5% or so), aim for a slightly lower pH, anything above 5.1 will be fine (you could add a bit of acid, I hate citric in beer but a heaped teaspoon might get your pH down enough, I prefer Lactic)
Don't be greedy, give it time to settle post boil and make sure you leave all the trub in the kettle
Start with fresh yeast, without a long conversation I wouldn't be comfortable assuming you are getting anywhere near as much healthy yeast as you might expect, personally I am far from convinced that a lot of the methods of yeast propagation are anywhere near as effective as people think, so just buy 2 packets of a good lager yeast and hang the expense, see if it fixes the problem.

Ideally I would like to see the ferment over in 7 days, if not rack to get off old yeast that can autolyse, this can put quite a lot of very head negative protease into the beer.
Hope you see an improvement, as above it often isn't just one thing, but a bit from A,B&C that all add up to a problem.
Mark