GUTEN

[duncbrewer]

How good are partigyles... Always worthwhile if you have a bucket handy to make starter beers and yeast cakes.

If you ever forget to measure preboil gravities, you can calculate the difference using the known volumes and post boil gravity.
Preboil Volume x Preboil Gravity = Post boil Volume x Post boil Gravity
Therefore
Preboil Gravity = Postboil Volume x Postboil Gravity / Preboil Volume. Note it needs to be the volume in the same vessel, like the kettle. So assuming you got the anticipated 26L in the kettle... You would have had a preboil gravity of ~1.075 (24 * 81 / 26)

I always find that when you push your equipment past the sweet spot, the efficiency tends to suffer. That said Efficiency will drift a few percent between brews even when inside the sweet spot.

Best thing about electric kettles is the evaporation rate is predictable and consistent. These days I undershoot my efficiency in recipe calculators (set it ~5-10% lower than my average). So I am able to predict and hit my target gravity every brew using the equation above, paired with known evaporation and dilution. Simply letting the volume vary with efficiency (usually get a bit more volume) and locking in the gravity I want to achieve.

I'm not sure why the brewers friend has such a big change, but I wouldn't worry about it. If your beer is good, all is good.

Thanks for this info, I'll try some other tactics on bigger beers ( I don't make many) and if not just do the partigyle bigger volume and spread it over 2 days.
I have a clone recipe for Harveys Elizabethan barley wine and could just parti gyle the rest to make some of their best bitter ( if I could get their yeast ) .

 

[mynameisrodney]

Brewed an IPA on the weekend, had a few issues again.

A lot crud stuck to the bottom of the kettle again, looked like it was just starting to scorch. For this brew I'd tried turning it down so I didn't go above 2400W for the boil. I think that grain particles that make it out of the malt pipe are settling in the centre of the base, and the flow is too slow to drag them over the raised ring. Not sure what to do about this.

The false bottom became 100% clogged while whirlpooling. I came back to find the guten half full of foam as it had been drawing air down the sight glass and blowing bubbles out the whirlpool arm. I was worried I might have damaged the pump by running it dry, but it seems to be working fine. Looks like it did a good job oxygenating the wort though as the fermentation took off like a rocket.

 

[duncbrewer]

I'm only boiling at 1000 watts with the lid on and condenser. Were you using whole hops? or pellets?

I wonder what would have happened if you had bunged the end of the sight glass?

I whirlpool flat out to start with and then slow it down via the valve as time goes by so eventually it's hardly anything and then turn it off and leave it to settle for a while. Then pump out into the fermenter.

I'm thinking of doing a bigger vol mash at the weekend for an ipa no sparge or just tiny amount. THen sparge the grains left behind and use that as my mash water for a stout. Given my recent experience of getting high gravity wort out of the second runnings might balance some of those inefficiencies. I'm sure if I could get the sparge slower it would be more effective but no grain crush seems to allow a slow sparge it just drops right through.

 

[mynameisrodney]

I tried lid on at a lower wattage but wasn't getting a high enough boil off rate and wasn't going to hit my target OG. Would be fine if I'd planned for the lower boil off rate, but not changing halfway through the brew. I might try to just boil some water this way for a few hours to measure what the boil off rate actually is so I have this as another option.

There was 100g of loose pellets in there. I've been turning on the pump as soon as the boil ends. Chiller goes on until temp reads 85 (usually 75ish actual temp), then turn chiller off for whirlpool, then cool back down to as low as I can get it. Pull the chiller out and leave pump running for another 5-10min before turning it off and letting it settle for 30-60min. It was during that last bit of cold whirlpooling that it clogged. I think maybe the chiller kept the hop matter towards the sides as it was cooling down, so that bit of the false bottom clogged early. Next time I might run a spatula around the side after pulling the chiller.

Good luck for the weekend. Sounds like an exciting brew!

 

[duncbrewer]

Ahh I see could be that the chiller in the kettle is preventing a good cone in the middle. Was there a cone of hop material or just a flat mat of it?

I'm not getting those concerns about the bottom of the kettle and the heat, I'll take a picture at the weekend to show what mine looks like ( the bit of the kettle base that needs a gentle scrub).

Just working out the hop regime for the IPA base malts pretty happy.

Will update next week, bound to be difficulties, every brew day feels experimental.

 

[mynameisrodney]

That's the bottom of mine after the last brew. The BSDA was far worse.

 

[duncbrewer]

Mine has a similar pattern but more sludgy brown not black looking. BSDA?

 

[mynameisrodney]

BSDA = Belgian strong dark ale. OG was ~1.08 and was an extended boil at full power. That was the first time I'd seen the issue, it was quite black. Previously just some light brown sludge as you say.

With my previous BIAB setup I had some scorching issues early on, but solved it by using one of the kegland power stations to dial the power down up until I reached the boil. At that point there is enough turbulence in the kettle to keep anything from settling on the element. With the guten though dialling down the power doesn't work in the same way, it just changes the duty cycle. So maybe even at the lower power setting it is still getting momentarily too hot on the surface.

 

[duncbrewer]

Thanks for the translation.
I didn't realise that the controller worked much like most microwaves, so 80 % power just means it's on for 80 % of the time.

That would explain the peaks and troughs. I thought there was an electronic dimmer on the element wheras the brewzilla with three temp settings was just like turning on more bars of an electric fire.

 

[BrewLizard]

That's true for very old microwaves. New(er) "inverter" microwaves can set arbitrary power levels.

It is definitely a bit lame that the Guten uses a bang-bang control scheme. While PID is overkill (at the homebrew level) for a plant with such huge inertia (i.e. huge vat of liquid), P control would definitely be good.

 

[duncbrewer]

I think that inverter microwaves are in the minority hence my feeling about " most microwaves".

Is a takedown and PID fitting the only way to get a finer control on the element? no way to fit a simmerstat to it? or would that theory not work.

 

[Ian Mackenzie]

I have a 50l Guten and have tried the false bottom . What I do if it's any use is don't use the false bottom. Boil at 2200 watts.
I get some slight discoloring on the bottom at this level but is easy to clean. I tried just throwing the hops in but found that this flattened the cone to much when whirlpooling. I now use a small paint strainer bag for the hops, (about $2.50 at Bunnings for 3). They are easy to clean I get at least 5 brews out of each one. I have stopped using the chiller and now hot cube. This make it a lot easier to whirlpool and I also use brewbrite just before starting the whirlpool. I consistently get about a 4lt/hr boil off. and have a 2 to 3 lts left behind in the Guten .
I hope this is of some use to you.
Ian

 

[Ballaratguy]

I think that inverter microwaves are in the minority hence my feeling about " most microwaves".

Is a takedown and PID fitting the only way to get a finer control on the element? no way to fit a simmerstat to it? or would that theory not work.

I’ve put a grainfather Bluetooth control box on my 40Lt Guten
It’s awesome you only have to find or input your recipe and the controller does the rest. Instead of reducing the wattage to the heater elements you can set your height above sea level or reduce by % of power required and the controller will keep the heat at that
Where as the Guten controller just turns the elements on or off

 

[duncbrewer]

@Ballaratguy I remember you mentioned your second hand bluetooth purchase.

I had a lot more success with my two brews yesterday, haven't worked out the numbers yet but no sparge worked well and saved a bit of time. Although I did partigyle the grain whilst the boil was going on which was fruitful.

I'll update once the calculations are done.

Picture of my element at the end cleaning out the rest of the mess of an ipa boil with couple of hundred grams of hops used in the kettle ( this pre the next brew and a bit of a scrub ).

 

[Ballaratguy]

@Ballaratguy I remember you mentioned your second hand bluetooth purchase.

I had a lot more success with my two brews yesterday, haven't worked out the numbers yet but no sparge worked well and saved a bit of time. Although I did partigyle the grain whilst the boil was going on which was fruitful.

I'll update once the calculations are done.

Picture of my element at the end cleaning out the rest of the mess of an ipa boil with couple of hundred grams of hops used in the kettle ( this pre the next brew and a bit of a scrub ).
View attachment 120931

From what I can see of the scorch mark (I can’t brew those pictures. Most of the time I can only see the top10% of a picture and with yours none of it. It’s in the too hard basket for admin)
I found with the Guten controller all you can do is try to work out a reduced wattage to give you a physical rolling boil. But my experience with the Guten is that once it gets to temp it shuts down until the temp drops enough for it to start heating
With the grainfather controller you can set the % of the wattage as it’s boiling

 

[MHB]

Ian above has a good point; the false bottom sitting over the heating surface will screw up the movement of wort in the kettle; to the point where I would expect scorching. In a kettle the heated wort rises and cooler wort flows down the sides toward the heating surface. Put a big plate in there and you are going to be creating a hot zone above the element. The free movement of wort in the kettle is a fairly important part of how a kettle performs; it effects coagulation of protein, tannin complex precipitation, evaporation of DMS even hop utilisation...

I was under the impression that he FB was only for use with BIAB or a malt pipe and should be taken out with the bag or the malt. Not really something I have paid a huge amount of attention to, as it doesn’t impact on my brewing. I would also think that any well engineered system wouldn't scorch the way people are reporting. Hate to think what a false bottom would be doing to trub collection when you whirlpool at the end of the boil, it has to be playing hob with the movement of trub.
Mark

 

[duncbrewer]

@Ballaratguy and @MHB
I'm not using a false bottom in mine, just a trubtrapper which is like a big ring, this doesn't impede the boil as outside of the elements nor the whirlpool.
Hop catching and trub is caught well.
I don't think that there is any burnt part on the element, sorry if my picture gives that impression the thin gooey layer wipes off with a sponge and cold water and very little effort. Gelatinised something but not burnt.
@mynameisrodney picture and experience does suggest it was scorched and he is using the false bottom and a higher wattage.

 

[sp0rk]

Ian above has a good point; the false bottom sitting over the heating surface will screw up the movement of wort in the kettle; to the point where I would expect scorching. In a kettle the heated wort rises and cooler wort flows down the sides toward the heating surface. Put a big plate in there and you are going to be creating a hot zone above the element. The free movement of wort in the kettle is a fairly important part of how a kettle performs; it effects coagulation of protein, tannin complex precipitation, evaporation of DMS even hop utilisation...

I was under the impression that he FB was only for use with BIAB or a malt pipe and should be taken out with the bag or the malt. Not really something I have paid a huge amount of attention to, as it doesn’t impact on my brewing. I would also think that any well engineered system wouldn't scorch the way people are reporting. Hate to think what a false bottom would be doing to trub collection when you whirlpool at the end of the boil, it has to be playing hob with the movement of trub.
Mark

Can confirm, I had some scorching when I used my guten FB for the first time last weekend
my boiloff rate was WAY off as well and I came in at about 1.056 instead of 1.066 where I wanted to be
It also a GIANT pain in the arse to put in, since the spring clip that the malt pipe sits on is welded together and can'tbe popped out, you've got to bend the FB to put it in
I won't be using it again

 

[BrewLizard]

I definitely don't enjoy putting in and taking out the false bottom. Lots of unpleasant scratching and bending.

 

[duncbrewer]

Love it,
Doctor whats the problem ?
" It's my false bottom its a real pain in the arse "