GUTEN

[Reg Holt]

I don't really see the point of 'no sparge'. It's not really that hard. If you're already heating up that much water drain some into a pot or insulated vessel then sparge while getting the wort up to boil.

I have a portable hot plate that i sit a 12litre pot with my already heated to 66c sparge water in which only takes about 10 minutes to heat to 75c for mash out sparge temp. The malt pipe has to draining whilst I'm raising the kettle to boil.

I can't see any major time saving doing no sparge. So other than using more grain I'm a bit stumped as to why this is a method that I'd want to use.

What you have to consider is time wise a sparge can take up to 40 to 60 minutes during the sparging process you WILL be removing tannins from the grain bed into the wort. A no sparge will deliver a cleaner beer, for a couple of dollars worth of extra grain you are saving not only time, heating up extra water but a better conversion rate because of the fluid state of the wort.

 

[Cian Doyle]

I have been reading similar to the above, to me as a beginner the least complications the better.

 

[FarsideOfCrazy]

What you have to consider is time wise a sparge can take up to 40 to 60 minutes during the sparging process you WILL be removing tannins from the grain bed into the wort. A no sparge will deliver a cleaner beer, for a couple of dollars worth of extra grain you are saving not only time, heating up extra water but a better conversion rate because of the fluid state of the wort.

When I sparge it takes about 10 min to pour the water over the top screen. The vessel hasn't even gotten anywhere near boiling by the time it's drained.

 

[Ballaratguy]

I have a question for the guys who use the helix for filtering:
When hopping your brew if you just pour your hops into the brew will the helix filter out the hops when you empty the Guten?
(Long time lurker, just purchased the Guten & about to clean it and put a brew (pirate life throwback clone) next week)

 

[wide eyed and legless]

I have a question for the guys who use the helix for filtering:
When hopping your brew if you just pour your hops into the brew will the helix filter out the hops when you empty the Guten?
(Long time lurker, just purchased the Guten & about to clean it and put a brew (pirate life throwback clone) next week)

Yes there isn't much gets through the helix, put your hops straight into the boil but if you are chilling the wort with an immersion chiller the break will clog the helix.

 

[FarsideOfCrazy]

I have a question for the guys who use the helix for filtering:
When hopping your brew if you just pour your hops into the brew will the helix filter out the hops when you empty the Guten?
(Long time lurker, just purchased the Guten & about to clean it and put a brew (pirate life throwback clone) next week)

If you no chill the helix seems to work but if you chill then drain expect a bit of pain. Seems the cold break blocks the helix. I've only had it drain once out of about 10 brews easily ( I chill). It does do a good job of filtering hops if you can get it to work.

 

[Ballaratguy]

Thx for the quick response Weal
I’m intending to hot cube as I’m aware of water usage for chilling. I might see about running the wort through an ice chilled bath at a later date (maybe)

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Thx for the quick response Weal
I’m intending to hot cube as I’m aware of water usage for chilling. I might see about running the wort through an ice chilled bath at a later date (maybe)

You could leave the cold break in the cube if you pour it out gently without it glugging.

 

[goatchop41]

What you have to consider is time wise a sparge can take up to 40 to 60 minutes during the sparging process you WILL be removing tannins from the grain bed into the wort. A no sparge will deliver a cleaner beer, for a couple of dollars worth of extra grain you are saving not only time, heating up extra water but a better conversion rate because of the fluid state of the wort.

That sparge time may be relevant on a 3V system, but a sparge on this system can take a mere 10-15 mins and still give fantastic efficiency.
Regarding pulling tannins from the grain bed during your sparge - if you're doing that in any appreciable amount, then you're either sparging way too hot, have stuffed up your pH, or must have pretty much ground your malt in to almost complete flour (in which case you won'be be sparging, because it will certainly be a stuck/fully compacted bed).

As @FarsideOfCrazy pointed out, there really isn't any appeal to no-sparging here - you get lower overall efficiency and you have to modify the equipment to be able to fit a full batch. Sparging is stupidly easy on this - just heat the whole volume of water, then drain off the sparge water in to a bucket and let it sit until you need it. You don't even need to try to keep it warm or anything because it doesn't matter. Hell, you could probably just pour the entire bucket over the grain bed at once and still get better efficiency than no-sparging.
(For the record, I'm a former no-sparger from my previous BIAB setup and I loved it then. I am just completely convinced that it is worthwhile sparging with these systems)

 

[malt and barley blues]

As mentioned earlier, crush the grain so there are no visible un- cracked grain, the best thing about no sparge is with the extra volume of liquor you will not be compacting the grain bed, you will have what is known as a grain bed in a fluid state. This will lead to a better extraction of the sugars leading to a better efficiency. In saying that, because you will not be extracting the remaining sugars out with a sparge, the grain bill will have to increase. I will be doing one and I will be starting off at a 15% increase in the base malt and work it from there, or as has been suggested by WEAL, lower the projected efficiency and work it out with whichever program you use. For myself I will be increasing the base malt. It's a bit of 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.

How did you arrive at 15% Reg?

 

[Reg Holt]

That sparge time may be relevant on a 3V system, but a sparge on this system can take a mere 10-15 mins and still give fantastic efficiency.
Regarding pulling tannins from the grain bed during your sparge - if you're doing that in any appreciable amount, then you're either sparging way too hot, have stuffed up your pH, or must have pretty much ground your malt in to almost complete flour (in which case you won'be be sparging, because it will certainly be a stuck/fully compacted bed).

As @FarsideOfCrazy pointed out, there really isn't any appeal to no-sparging here - you get lower overall efficiency and you have to modify the equipment to be able to fit a full batch. Sparging is stupidly easy on this - just heat the whole volume of water, then drain off the sparge water in to a bucket and let it sit until you need it. You don't even need to try to keep it warm or anything because it doesn't matter. Hell, you could probably just pour the entire bucket over the grain bed at once and still get better efficiency than no-sparging.
(For the record, I'm a former no-sparger from my previous BIAB setup and I loved it then. I am just completely convinced that it is worthwhile sparging with these systems)

I was just answering FOC post, I sparge, I sparge slow, its not just only about efficiency it is about tannins as well. As I said I will be trying a "no sparge" WEAL has tweaked my interest, there is no modifications needed, today I bought some threaded bar and 2 nuts from Bunnings, this will go the full width of the malt pipe and sit on the retaining lip, while also being my lifting handle. When I try the "no sparge" on the Guten I will be adding about $4.00 more worth of base malt to the grain bill, this will make up the loss in efficiency, I don't have to think about heating up sparge water and I know I will have less tannins than if I had sparged, that's what I call stupidly simple. If anyone asks for advice I will give it, if they don't want to follow it that's fine by me.
If you want to just pour the full bucket of sparge water over the grain bed that's fine by me too, but that is something I will not be trying.

How did you arrive at 15% Reg?

That is just the starting point, the efficiency I got on the first batch was 86% so 15% extra base malt should be about right.

 

[user 37368]

The best thing about no sparge is second runnings.

 

[Mya]

If you no chill the helix seems to work but if you chill then drain expect a bit of pain. Seems the cold break blocks the helix. I've only had it drain once out of about 10 brews easily ( I chill). It does do a good job of filtering hops if you can get it to work.

I've done 2 brews with the helix, I whirlpooled both times and did a cold break as well and didn't have the helix block at all. The trub was nicely piled up in the middle and also about 80% up the height of the helix so only the top of the helix was actually draining but it still drained remarkably fast.

I put hops in a bag which might reduce the efficiency of the hop transfer but means I can cold break and only end up with a very thin layer of trub in the fermenter after a cold crash and can drain out down to the last 0.5L in the fermenter still getting clear beer!

 

[wide eyed and legless]

I've done 2 brews with the helix, I whirlpooled both times and did a cold break as well and didn't have the helix block at all. The trub was nicely piled up in the middle and also about 80% up the height of the helix so only the top of the helix was actually draining but it still drained remarkably fast.

I put hops in a bag which might reduce the efficiency of the hop transfer but means I can cold break and only end up with a very thin layer of trub in the fermenter after a cold crash and can drain out down to the last 0.5L in the fermenter still getting clear beer!

So what are you describing as 'did a cold break'?

 

[Mya]

Whirlfloc during the boil and chilling to 30 degC with a copper immersion chiller

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Whirlfloc during the boil and chilling to 30 degC with a copper immersion chiller

Sometimes the helix will work but rarely, when it has been chilled, if you continue to use the helix and rapid chill it is a good idea to have something close by to push in between the spirals to get it to start emptying, may have to be done a couple of times.

 

[malt and barley blues]

I was just answering FOC post, I sparge, I sparge slow, its not just only about efficiency it is about tannins as well. As I said I will be trying a "no sparge" WEAL has tweaked my interest, there is no modifications needed, today I bought some threaded bar and 2 nuts from Bunnings, this will go the full width of the malt pipe and sit on the retaining lip, while also being my lifting handle. When I try the "no sparge" on the Guten I will be adding about $4.00 more worth of base malt to the grain bill, this will make up the loss in efficiency, I don't have to think about heating up sparge water and I know I will have less tannins than if I had sparged, that's what I call stupidly simple. If anyone asks for advice I will give it, if they don't want to follow it that's fine by me.
If you want to just pour the full bucket of sparge water over the grain bed that's fine by me too, but that is something I will not be trying.


That is just the starting point, the efficiency I got on the first batch was 86% so 15% extra base malt should be about right.

Cheers Reg, good idea with the threaded bar.

 

[goatchop41]

there is no modifications needed, today I bought some threaded bar and 2 nuts from Bunnings, this will go the full width of the malt pipe and sit on the retaining lip, while also being my lifting handle.

Uuuhhhhhh that's exactly what a modification is, yes? Altering the malt pipe to block the handle holes is a modification...

I don't have to think about heating up sparge water and I know I will have less tannins than if I had sparged.

Even more simple is understanding that you don't have to heat the sparge water at all. Cold sparging is exactly the same as warm.

You keep talking about tannins like they're an ever-present bogeyman in the brewing process. Unless you're stuffing up your process by having a very poor pH, milling incredibly fine, or sparging with pretty much boiling water, then it really isn't an issue. The amount that you're pulling from the grain with a normal sparge under normal mash conditions with even a half decent crush is negligible, and certainly not enough to be detectable.
The issue is that you may be giving more novice users the impression that they have to be really worried about tannin levels in their wort which, as mentioned above, isn't likely a real concern for most brewers unless they're really stuffing up somewhere. Chill out on your concern about the scary tannins

 

[Cian Doyle]

Finished my first all grain brew today, went surprisingly easy, in the fermenting fridge now at 18 degrees. Fingers crossed for the morning and now planning my next brew. Thanks for the help.

 

[awfulknauful]

I have got some all thread, it is galvanised will this be a problem?