Get into O2 guys, if you're serious about nicer beer

[Zorco]

Real question?

Look on the face of it the question makes sense. The vessel is as sturdy, whatever gas was in there could be purged. There probably isn't a combustion risk reason. Circulation of cylinders would make business sense.


Good question from an inquisitive mind. **** yes. ******* awesome. Boo ******* yes. **** the **** yes.


So why would they refuse? Regulatory practices? Process control? Safety practices?

Simplicity. Most people are ******* stupid... am I right???? Isn't that why regulation is in place, because we are not all IQ 500000 to handle the relative complexity of the world we have created in the past few years compared to the evolutionary capabilities of our brains....

That's the basis of '******* stupid' that I mean. It is impossible to know all of pharmacology, physics, neurology, law, process control, history.

Humans are crazy finite.

It is a great question from an open and inquisitive mind

Any question should be treated as a real question because no one is smart enough to perceive the world the way all others can.

Unless trolls.... **** them

 

[Coldspace]

After getting sick & tired of dealing with tubing that kept wanting to coil up and make oxygenating wort more difficult than it should be, I recently bought myself a DIY wand from china for $2.50. It's just a stainless steel cylinder that I attach to a stone via a short piece of silicon tube, and then attach other end to the silicon tube that goes to the regulator. The only downside is that the ss cylinder has a sharp superfluous edge at one end where they've cut the cylinder from a longer cylinder (and this kinda cuts,scrapes into the inner part of the silicon tubing. I'm worried that might become a good hiding place for bacteria).
So I'm considering ways of shaving off that sharp bit of stainless steel, or just biting the bullet and buying a $50 wand locally.

I just use my stainless long mash in paddle, I use a small zippy tie, tie the stone to the end, spray with starsan, then when I put the oxygen stone to the bottom of fermenter I also just gently stir it with the paddle to help disperse the gas.

Works well, lift out cut zippy tie, off we go....

Not sure if I'm over or under doing it, but slightly over would be no detriment I would think but other more scientific people may have a better view than my back yard experiments....

I did read somewhere, can't remember , that the higher the part per million , the lot longer you need to gas, it's a diminishing return. So other than wasting some gas, I think you would have to be really going nuts to over do it..

 

[Adr_0]

Just on H2O2, I'm getting a bit more comfortable using it and will do a with/without split batch with dry yeast.

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://folk.ntnu.no/audunfor/5.%2520semester/Felles%2520lab/Report%2520-%2520yeast%2520fermentation%2520-%2520B19.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiRqqDypYzQAhXCEpQKHVHtABEQFgg5MAM&usg=AFQjCNEitaYCnf-8yfs-3GfZ8jY6SE_pFA&sig2=RRRzHXlaVeGzJWQIC495sQ

Assuming 8-20g of H2O2 (6% or 3%) to get 10ppm in 23L this takes 20-25min to fully decompose at 11g/23L, vs just under 20 min for 22g (two packs) and 6-7min at 50-55g/23L.

I think the food grade bit is important but seems like the free radicals only come up with certain metal catalysts.

It seems like a couple of things point to adding yeast to the wort, THEN adding H2O2 - not only is the yeast critical to catalyse the decomposition, but as mentioned previously, having highish DO hanging around without yeast can possibly stale the wort somewhat. So if yeast is there already then it in hopefully going to yeast growth instead of just oxidising wort.

 

[manticle]

Look on the face of it the question make sense. The vessel is as sturdy, whatever gas was in there could be purged. There probably isn't a combustion risk reason. Circulation of cylinders would make business sense.
Good question from an inquisitive mind. **** yes. ******* awesome. Boo ******* yes. **** the **** yes.
So why would they refuse? Regulatory practices? Process control? Safety practices?
Simplicity. Most people are ******* stupid... am I right???? Isn't that why regulation is in place, because we are not all IQ 500000 to handle the relative complexity of the world we have created in the past few years compared to the evolutionary capabilities of our brains....
That's the basis of '******* stupid' that I mean. It is impossible to know all of pharmacology, physics, neurology, law, process control, history.
Humans are crazy finite.
It is a great question from an open and inquisitive mind
Any question should be treated as a real question because no one is smart enough to perceive the world the way all others can.
Unless trolls.... **** them

Multiple question marks are the devil's work.

Question was not 'can Oxygen be used to fill a CO2 tank?' but 'will BOC fill my CO2 tank with O2?'

I highly doubt it.

My local BoC staff are the dumbest spanners ever put in a box by the way. Pretty sure they won't be filling cylinders knowingly with the wrong gas, even if they can't say why.

 

[technobabble66]

Yep. I reckon the sequence needs to be:
1) add yeast to wort
2) add H2O2 to wort

That way the catalase from the yeast splits the peroxide quickly and protects/minimizes it from reacting with the wort molecules to cause staling.
It also seems the yeast can do this to protect the rest of itself from the peroxide. And the O2 should then be sitting there ready to be used by the yeast.

I'm pretty confident of the theory. The only problem is the next batch I'm doing is for the Vic Case Swap, so I'd rather not discover the theory (& my confidence) is wrong.

Just checking to quantity of 3% or 6% to add, how have you done that estimate of 8-20g, Adr_0?

 

[technobabble66]

Double post

While I'm here, great first day at the WACA!!

 

[Zorco]

Multiple question marks are the devil's work.

Hey, neat! You invented something. Give urban dictionary a try.

 

[Adr_0]

Hey, neat! You invented something. Give urban dictionary a try.

Regarding the filling with O2, it comes down to product labelling. It's a little dangerous because grey/green CO2 cylinders, if filled with O2, could then be lined up to an application not compatible with O2. Similarly, thread sealants and lubricants in CO2 valves would not be compatible with O2. Returning a grey/green beer gas cylinder that's gotten O2 in it could be an extremely dangerous thing.

Similarly, if you had a black/white medical O2 cylinder and filled it with CO2...

There is no way in hell they'd put a different gas in a cylinder labelled for and intended for CO2 - and would lose their job if they did.

 

[Adr_0]

Yep. I reckon the sequence needs to be:
1) add yeast to wort
2) add H2O2 to wort
That way the catalase from the yeast splits the peroxide quickly and protects/minimizes it from reacting with the wort molecules to cause staling.
It also seems the yeast can do this to protect the rest of itself from the peroxide. And the O2 should then be sitting there ready to be used by the yeast.
I'm pretty confident of the theory. The only problem is the next batch I'm doing is for the Vic Case Swap, so I'd rather not discover the theory (& my confidence) is wrong.
Just checking to quantity of 3% or 6% to add, how have you done that estimate of 8-20g, Adr_0?

I went 10mg/L x 23L = 0.23g.
O2 is 32g/mol, so that means 0.007mol of O2 for 10ppm in 23L.
0.007mol, by the 2H202 > 2H2O + O2, means 2 x 0.007mol of H2O2, ie 0.014mol, and at 34g/mol, is 0.48g of H202.
3wt% >> 16g
6wt% >> 8g

I'm pretty sure the solutions you get are vol%, but it would be pretty close.

 

[Coodgee]

Tin of spray paint and a stencil.

 

[Jack of all biers]

Just on H2O2, I'm getting a bit more comfortable using it and will do a with/without split batch with dry yeast.

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://folk.ntnu.no/audunfor/5.%2520semester/Felles%2520lab/Report%2520-%2520yeast%2520fermentation%2520-%2520B19.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiRqqDypYzQAhXCEpQKHVHtABEQFgg5MAM&usg=AFQjCNEitaYCnf-8yfs-3GfZ8jY6SE_pFA&sig2=RRRzHXlaVeGzJWQIC495sQ

Assuming 8-20g of H2O2 (6% or 3%) to get 10ppm in 23L this takes 20-25min to fully decompose at 11g/23L, vs just under 20 min for 22g (two packs) and 6-7min at 50-55g/23L.

I think the food grade bit is important but seems like the free radicals only come up with certain metal catalysts.

It seems like a couple of things point to adding yeast to the wort, THEN adding H2O2 - not only is the yeast critical to catalyse the decomposition, but as mentioned previously, having highish DO hanging around without yeast can possibly stale the wort somewhat. So if yeast is there already then it in hopefully going to yeast growth instead of just oxidising wort.

Thanks for finding that paper. Very interesting. I note that they made the assumption that the water absorbed very little of the oxygen and that they obviously produced oxygen gas that displaced the volume in the flask. This raised the question of how much oxygen gets absorbed in a wort/brewing situation. Do your calculations take into account oxygen loss by this method or would some tweaking based on the experiment's outcomes be in order.

EDIT - I read the question and answers section of the paper and see that they covered the absorption of oxygen into the water under Q-reaction delay pg 18. For those not bothered to read it, it says that the water will absorb the first oxygen gas formed and in a prior question they refer to the amount of oxygen absorbed being constant (I take from that, that they got the water to maximum absorption rate for the temp it was at). Serves me right for not fully reading before posting questions h34r: Oh well :drinks:

I think the food grade bit is important but seems like the free radicals only come up with certain metal catalysts.

Have you found something regarding the stabilizers I linked earlier. I'd be keen to know if some or any are detrimental to health or brews?

I went 10mg/L x 23L = 0.23g.
O2 is 32g/mol, so that means 0.007mol of O2 for 10ppm in 23L.
0.007mol, by the 2H202 > 2H2O + O2, means 2 x 0.007mol of H2O2, ie 0.014mol, and at 34g/mol, is 0.48g of H202.
3wt% >> 16g
6wt% >> 8g

I'm pretty sure the solutions you get are vol%, but it would be pretty close.

Looking at the paper you linked it appears it is wt% not vol%. Also the common brands are labelled 3% w/w

 

[Adr_0]

Regarding the stabilisers:
-Colloidal stannate and sodium pyrophosphate (present at 25 - 250 mg/L) are traditional mainstays.

-Organophosphonates (e.g., Monsanto's Dequest products) are increasingly common.

-Nitrate (for pH adjustment and corrosion inhibition) and phosphoric acid (for pH adjustment) also are used.

-Colloidal silicate is used to sequester metals and thereby minimize H2O2 decomposition in certain applications that depend on the bleaching ability of H2O2 in alkali... and...

-Acetanilide

The last one is apparently pretty nasty,causing liver problems if enough is ingested.

Sodium pyrophosphate seems to be ok.

Stannates - being likely potassium, sodium stannate - are slightly irritating.

Nitrates, similar to stannates, in sodium/potassium/etc, slight irritants and probably not good in high doses.

Not sure on the Organophosphonates... And the acetalinide.

So yeah, I would be leaning towards the food grade if possible.

 

[peteru]

The product I've been using is Gold Cross Hydrogen Peroxide 20 volume 6% w/v 400ml manufactured by Probiotec Limited, which is a pharmaceuticals company based in Melbourne. I have used their online facility to submit some questions earlier this week, but have had no response. If I have time, I'll phone them tomorrow to find out more about that product and possible alternatives.

I have also done a few mini experiments to see what happens with various ingredients being added to the H2O2. Some interesting observations:

* Adding yeast nutrient directly to 6% H2O2 did not appear to have any observable effect.
* Adding a very small amount of dried yeast to the above solution resulted in immediate and clear production of O2 bubbles.
* Adding cooled wort to the above solution did not have an obvious effect, aside from diluting the mixture.

For the next phase, I placed the above concoction onto a stir plate set to 200 RPM left it alone overnight. I turned off the stir plate earlier today and from what I can see, it looks like there has been some yeast growth.

I'll need to perform a better experiment, but it looks like the best method may be to add food grade H2O2 directly to the starter just before pitching, being very careful not to create a gushing "mentos and cola" fountain in the process.

 

[Dave70]

The last one is apparently pretty nasty,causing liver problems if enough is ingested.

Ha ha. Oh dear me, you wouldn't to consume any substance like that..

 

[technobabble66]

.

I'll need to perform a better experiment, but it looks like the best method may be to add food grade H2O2 directly to the starter just before pitching, being very careful not to create a gushing "mentos and cola" fountain in the process.

Why do it like that, where you're risking the peroxide reacting to the wort before you pitch your yeast in?
Why not pitch your yeast into your conventional wort, then add the peroxide lastly to that? That way the catalase should minimize any oxidization reactions between the peroxide and the wort components.

 

[Radshoes]

so then

are you guys saying I can get food grade hydrogen peroxide and put a small amount in my wort after adding yeast and that will give me sufficient oxygenation for healthy yeast growth and fermentation?

because I feel like that is what is being said but I am still struggling with the idea of putting hydrogen peroxide in my beer and this being a good thing.

 

[Ferg]

In my possession I currently have:

https://www.bunnings.com.au/ozito-1100w-inflate-it-compressor-kit_p6290319
https://www.bunnings.com.au/ozito-1-4-mini-filter-compressor-regulator_p6210579
http://kegking.com.au/0-2-micron-air-filter.html
http://kegking.com.au/2-micron-stainless-steel-diffusion-stone-air-stone-924.html

Should I combine them and get amongst it?

No. Get O2 and a regulator.

Assuming I don't have the budget for 02 and a regulator do you think this set-up would be beneficial compared to doing nothing?
I would have thought this would be the middle ground between an 02 set-up and shaking the fermenter. Probably slightly better than the run of the mill aquarium pump and sufficient to get my 8-10ppm in say 2-3 mins?

 

[technobabble66]

so then

are you guys saying I can get food grade hydrogen peroxide and put a small amount in my wort after adding yeast and that will give me sufficient oxygenation for healthy yeast growth and fermentation?

because I feel like that is what is being said but I am still struggling with the idea of putting hydrogen peroxide in my beer and this being a good thing.

Yep that's what we're saying.
But we're not quite 100% sure about it yet either.

Theory looks ~ correct.
It's at the testing stage now. So we need some of us to " 'ave a crack ya mug" and see what happens - whether it does the oxygenation we're after and whether it produces any negative - off flavours/aromas, impairs long term health of yeast, etc.

 

[Radshoes]

Cheers, I am going to go see what my local masters has in terms of cheap o2 today
just because I am worried if I try to oxygenate my stout with hydrogen peroxide I might get a blonde ale.

 

[Zorco]

hahaha