Get into O2 guys, if you're serious about nicer beer

[quadbox]

I am interested in getting an O2 setup and can see the benefits but one thing I was wondering about was when did commercial breweries start using oxygenation?
For example. Does Chimay use oxygenation and when did they start? Do they get better attenuation now than before? Did they use higher pitching rates previously to make up for lack of oxygenation?
They make some big, well attenuated beers. Obviously simple sugar plays a part but yeast health is also obviously important.

I'd be astounded if they didn't. Chimay have a history of being early adopters of innovations.

Commercial breweries have used oxygen a looooooooooong time.

 

[Matplat]

Yes rocker, it's lag increase due to more O2 been used up. It'll fire away hard in about 36 to 48 hrs.

All good...

I thought the idea was that the yeast does its thing faster (harder better stronger )aerobically, than anaerobically?

 

[Coldspace]

I thought the idea was that the yeast does its thing faster (harder better stronger )aerobically, than anaerobically?

Not sure... But I do remember MHB stating once that it does sound reasonable that due to higher O2 there is abit more lag due to this.
I have noticed this in my batches , usually 24-36 they fire away hard, nicer looking krausen and finish slightly quicker with a couple of points lower.
One thing is I recon my beers have been better last 5 odd months, this is all I need to continue the journey of making better beers...
Cheers

 

[mstrelan]

I thought the idea was that the yeast does its thing faster (harder better stronger )aerobically, than anaerobically?

I think the key word is healthier. They breed for a while and develop a nice healthy population and then ferment the sugars.

 

[husky]

Picked up an O2 set from gumtree yesterday, basically an empty bottle with a regulator and flow meter. Before I ring BOC can anyone shed some light on the refill options. Does the bottle belong to BOC and I will start paying rental when I go in to get it filled? What are the other refill options other than BOC?

 

[BKBrews]

I'm just starting to investigate this and will probably end up with a wand attached to 0.5 micron stone + a regulator for the benzomatic style disposable bottle.

I haven't read through the entire thread, but can someone shed some light on how you're estimating the per minute oxygen levels? Most of the regulators I've seen appear to be simple twist setups with no gauge.

 

[MHB]

You work out the flow rate by putting the stone in the bottom of the fermenter and slowly adjusting the O2 flow until the bubbles are just breaking the surface.
Which sort of makes me wonder just how much use the flow meter really is, its is just telling you something you already know - that you have enough O2 flowing to make the bubbles just reach the surface...

I know this has blown out to 25 pages, but if you did do a bit of reading I think you might conclude that the Benzomatic bottles are about the dearest way possible to buy O2, and that 2um stones are a lot easier to look after than 0.5um stones and give pretty much the same performance.
Mark

 

[Adr_0]

I just added 3mL of hopefully fairly good 12% H2O2 to 22L of a saison after pitching yeast. I'm sure the beer will be a tip job, but fingers crossed it works out.

 

[Liam_snorkel]

Interested in how it goes, cheers for taking one for the team

 

[Rocker1986]

I've been having success with the pure O2 as well recently. The lag times on these batches seem to be longer than when I didn't oxygenate the wort this way, but the fermentations are very healthy and the beers have all turned out really nicely. The latest one (a porter) was pitched on Saturday with 1469 after oxygenating for about 2 and a half minutes, and 72 hours later yesterday morning it had dropped from the OG of 1.060 down to 1.024. It's probably at FG now since I raised the temp up to 22C at that point. I'll definitely be continuing with it from now on.

 

[technobabble66]

I just added 3mL of hopefully fairly good 12% H2O2 to 22L of a saison after pitching yeast. I'm sure the beer will be a tip job, but fingers crossed it works out.

It'll be totally fine Adr_0.
I've done 4 batches like this over the last 2 months. All totally fine, took off quite happily & hit terminal reasonably steadily (minor technicality is one became infected, though nothing to do with this H2O2 technique).

I haven't reported these yet as I wanted to have some solid results to crow about. [emoji57] However, 2 of them were low-ish Gravity 11L batches from a Case Swap collaboration brew that each received a (fairly fresh) WLP pure pitch "vial". So I hadn't actually brewed them myself, they were low gravity, and the pitching rate was relatively high to begin with. Followed by the 3rd batch which was pitched onto the yeast cake of the non-infected first batch. Both of which were fermented by a Saison yeast (WLP-566) which are fairly fast anyway.
Finally the 4th is an APA test batch for the nuked FV of the infected batch, done using M44, currently close to terminal after ~7 days. Looking very healthy, but not finished yet.
So basically nothing groundbreaking to report, though I should've bothered to mention that it at the very least:
1) it doesn't seemed to have impaired the yeasts, and
2) it may well have contributed to healthy ferments.

I'm inclined to think it's worked well as an O2 source in these (sketchy!) tests from what I've initially seen, however i simply need more definitive results before I'd be confident in proclaiming it as a "proven" "good" method.


One minor thought I've had is to try splitting the H2O2 dose, if it's not too inconvenient.
Ie: squirt in half the amount after pitching, then come back several hours later and squirt in the other half.
Given this O2 technique is so easy (ie: sterilize a spoon, open FV, squirt in some stuff, stir it in, reseal FV), it seems like a great way to optimize the O2 by leveraging an advantage of this technique (ie: ease of delivery).

 

[peteru]

After hearing back from the chemists at Gold Cross, I'm happy enough to use their 6% hydrogen peroxide for my brews. The main stabiliser ingredient that they use is phosphoric acid. I bet I get more of that from the starsan than from the H2O2.

I've done several brews now with 10-12mL of H2O2 into 20-23L batches. All were done with US-05 and fermented in the 17-19C range. I'm happy with the fermentation results in a number of aspects: lag, time to FG, attenuation and flavour profile. The introduction of O2 is a relatively minor optimisation when compared to exercising proper temperature control, but it does give you that final 20% improvement.

It would be interesting to do a 3 way comparison of paint stirrer aeration, H2O2 addition and O2 via air stone in terms of the resulting flavour profile. As far as practical simplicity goes, nothing beats 10mL of H2O2 squirted into a fermenter. Faffing about with paint stirrers or O2 wands seems like way too much effort. My technique is to use a mash paddle to give the wort a good stir, then pour a liquid yeast starter into the whirlpool and immediately drip/slowly squirt the H2O2 into the moving mass.

BTW: My latest batch had H2O2 addition and with US-05 I fermented a Gladfield American Ale / Centennial SMaSH from 1.053 to 1.004 in 7 days at 16C, 1 day at 18C, 1 day at 20C and then 20 hours at 6C. Force carbed at 6C with aeration stone at 150KPa for one hour, then 120KPa for another two hours. Very clean taste. I could have probably gone faster on this ferment, but real life slowed my brewing down...

I'm glad that others are giving my technique a go. It's the simplest and safest method for increasing O2 concentrations in your wort at home brewing scale.

 

[Mardoo]

Just to add another option, "vitality starters". Putting your single-batch pitch on the stirplate with 500ml of fresh wort, and spinning the hell out of it for 4-6 hours. You oxygenate the vitality starter wort (or not), and then spin it up with the yeast. This is to oxygenate the yeast as fully as possible in the phase it most needs it, rather than oxygenating your entire batch of wort. I've done a few of them now and, anecdotally speaking, I can't tell the difference between batches of the same wort done on the same yeast, one with the vitality starter and the other with more typical oxygenation. I'm seeing krausen within 8 hours using the vitality starters. Apparently the idea originally came from Coors, via Colin Kaminsky.

Coors England developed an amazing method that is perfect for homebrewers to steal. Take a stir plate and make a starter. Add yeast and 10˚P wort [1.040 SG]. Aerate for 4 hours. At the end of 4 hours pitch into the wort. Do not aerate the batch. This maximizes “vitality.” Vitality is the most difficult to measure and important parameter in yeast. A standard starter is fermented out and then re-pitched. This [a vitality starter] uses continuous air and only allows the starter to spin for 4 hours. No alcohol is produced. The yeast respires but does not enter fermentation until after it’s pitched into the wort.

Apparently the technique originally came from two folks named Boulton and Quain.

It's an interesting notion that's holding out in my fermentations, at least according to flavour and storage duration. I wouldn't say it's making better beer than any other means of getting O2 to the yeast, but it certainly seems at least equal to the others.

 

[klangers]

I'm glad that others are giving my technique a go. It's the simplest and safest method for increasing O2 concentrations in your wort at home brewing scale.

Peroxide is hardly safe.

Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidant which reacts with anything organic (in a chemistry sense). It is very often the cause of fires. If it spills onto (eg) your garage floor, it will react violently with any oil or other organic compounds.

Not saying your technique doesn't work, but I'd be cautious on the grand claims.

 

[Yob]

So don't put it in the oven, leave it inside a car or place in a bowl of very hot water.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6HnXsy9zio

 

[Adr_0]

Interested in how it goes, cheers for taking one for the team

The only catch is that it's not really a controlled test. I did a split batch last time of two different yeasts, but just went double or nothing this time. But, we'll see how it goes anyway.

Sometime in the future I will do another split batch of with/without.

 

[Adr_0]

Just to add another option, "vitality starters". Putting your single-batch pitch on the stirplate with 500ml of fresh wort, and spinning the hell out of it for 4-6 hours. You oxygenate the vitality starter wort (or not), and then spin it up with the yeast. This is to oxygenate the yeast as fully as possible in the phase it most needs it, rather than oxygenating your entire batch of wort. I've done a few of them now and, anecdotally speaking, I can't tell the difference between batches of the same wort done on the same yeast, one with the vitality starter and the other with more typical oxygenation. I'm seeing krausen within 8 hours using the vitality starters. Apparently the idea originally came from Coors, via Colin Kaminsky.

Coors England developed an amazing method that is perfect for homebrewers to steal. Take a stir plate and make a starter. Add yeast and 10˚P wort [1.040 SG]. Aerate for 4 hours. At the end of 4 hours pitch into the wort. Do not aerate the batch. This maximizes “vitality.” Vitality is the most difficult to measure and important parameter in yeast. A standard starter is fermented out and then re-pitched. This [a vitality starter] uses continuous air and only allows the starter to spin for 4 hours. No alcohol is produced. The yeast respires but does not enter fermentation until after it’s pitched into the wort.

Apparently the technique originally came from two folks named Boulton and Quain.

It's an interesting notion that's holding out in my fermentations, at least according to flavour and storage duration. I wouldn't say it's making better beer than any other means of getting O2 to the yeast, but it certainly seems at least equal to the others.

This is in line with the Fermentis FAQ http://www.fermentis.com/brewing/industrial-brewing/faq/
Does the wort need Oxygenation / aeration?
As the yeast is grown aerobically, the yeast is less sensitive on first pitch. Aeration is recommended to ensure full mixing of the wort and yeast.

My understanding is that O2 is needed during growth to increase yeast cell density and cell vitality. So by extension, if yeast cells are growing - during reproduction - then a source of O2 is beneficial.

This still comes down to growing though, and adequate pitch. If you have an adequate pitch and have increased cell count with oxygen, then your yeast cells should indeed be perfectly healthy and can chew the sugahz quickly and comfortably.

I expected a bit of growing to still happen: I pitched only a packet of yeast and had only had about 9-10hrs on a smallish starter, so though O2 would be beneficial during reproduction/growth.

It still comes down to the same point I guess... if you expect a lot of growth in your wort, O2 will help. If you have a massive amount of fresh yeast that has been grown with O2 - I would say this is different to a yeast cake - then you don't really need it.

 

[GalBrew]

I would be a little wary adding hydrogen peroxide post-pitch. Sounds like a really good way of reducing yeast numbers, considering that peroxide is used as a disinfectant.

 

[Adr_0]

I would be a little wary adding hydrogen peroxide post-pitch. Sounds like a really good way of reducing yeast numbers, considering that peroxide is used as a disinfectant.

I think like many things, it depends on the dosage. You may be correct if I poured 1L of 12% H2O2 into the wort, but I don't believe you are correct when we're talking about 3mL of 12% solution in 22L of wort.

I had a big rocky krausen when I checked 9hrs after pitching yeast, so hopefully that indicates healthy yeast rather than dead yeast.

 

[GalBrew]

I think like many things, it depends on the dosage. You may be correct if I poured 1L of 12% H2O2 into the wort, but I don't believe you are correct when we're talking about 3mL of 12% solution in 22L of wort.

I had a big rocky krausen when I checked 9hrs after pitching yeast, so hopefully that indicates healthy yeast rather than dead yeast.

You are probably right, it just feels a bit wrong after using H202 to kill microbes rather than feed them! I would be interested if anyone has access to a dissolved oxygen meter and a microscope to compare peroxide with direct oxygen. Even if the methods were the same, I would be happy to ditch the oxygen wand.