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TheBeerBaron

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You are easily amused then. Never fails to amuse me too that it was all stuff done on KK money, KK paid for time and in KK paid for factory. So yes we do own it and no need for thanking when you have already paid for it. Thanks for the heads up that you just want to stir and have no interest in the truth. Just try to lob something and run quickly rather than have the whole story come out.
the issue is you carrying on like a jealous ex-girlfriend shitting on them where ever possible with fake profiles etc.

Never encountered such an irritating business employee such as yourself.
 

Meddo

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I understand now what happened, easy mistake to make. That's the problem with the butterfly valve you have equal lbs force of the pressure pushing to open it and the pressure to keep it closed.
Another plus for the Fermenter King plunger fitting,the pressure would have just lifted the plunger and saved any dramas.
How is the plunger secured in the closed position? I assume it doesn't rely on a pressure differential?
 

CEO Keg King

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the issue is you carrying on like a jealous ex-girlfriend shitting on them where ever possible with fake profiles etc.

Never encountered such an irritating business employee such as yourself.
Hate to tell you but I don’t get paid so really not an employee. I do what I do to because I believe in people doing the right thing. Fortunately there are many others who believe in this too. Your irritation is pretty much self inflicted and not worthy of a Baron title.
 

CEO Keg King

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How is the plunger secured in the closed position? I assume it doesn't rely on a pressure differential?
No it does not. Held in place by O ring seals when open and by tank pressure when closed. If pressure in the bottle gets too big it just pushes up. The main tank is of course protected by the PRV.
 

Meddo

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No it does not. Held in place by O ring seals when open and by tank pressure when closed. If pressure in the bottle gets too big it just pushes up. The main tank is of course protected by the PRV.
That sounds like a pressure differential... Probably a good solution to the overpressure risk in the collection bottle, it means you can't reliably leave the bottle attached with the plug closed (not a good idea anyway)b if you do and it opens no real harm done (aside from stirring up the contents). You'd probably only do that once
 

CEO Keg King

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That sounds like a pressure differential... Probably a good solution to the overpressure risk in the collection bottle, it means you can't reliably leave the bottle attached with the plug closed (not a good idea anyway)b if you do and it opens no real harm done (aside from stirring up the contents). You'd probably only do that once
Basically if the pressure in the bottle becomes greater than the main tank it will push the plunger up. The main tank is of course limited by the PRV. So effectively the collection bottle is limited by this also. It’s a fail safe scenario. Also the PET is quite flexible and does not crack like Polycarbonate
 

Schikitar

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I wonder what pressure the collection jar is rated to (with the valve closed) because I always get a bit nervous pumping ~30psi through it when trying to purge O2 before the dry hop.. now I feel like I might need to wear safety glasses when doing this!
 
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That's a good point Schiktar, I think it should carry a warning, its a mistake anyone can make. How many of us have left a fermenter tap on when filling it, and more than once.:D
I haven't read the instruction manual onto whether it addresses the closing of the BV and leaving yeast in there. Things like that should be written in big red letters. Human error has to be taken into account.
 

DazH

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Perhaps a PRV could/should be fitted to the collection jar to prevent it from rupturing ?
 

Neil Buttriss

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I wonder what pressure the collection jar is rated to (with the valve closed) because I always get a bit nervous pumping ~30psi through it when trying to purge O2 before the dry hop.. now I feel like I might need to wear safety glasses when doing this!
I don't think safety glasses would help, normally when you are either getting the yeast or dry hopping you are down to the same level as the container, these look they really let go.
If it were my business I would be very concerned about the containers blowing up as if someone receives a significant injury it could be bad. I reckon KL should put an immediate warning out there recommending people don't pressure ferment in this vessel until a fix is found or at least don't use the catching container. Interesting to note this problem has only surfaced since the leak fix has been implemented. My opinion is that the collection Container is not fit for Purpose.
 

goatchop41

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I reckon KL should put an immediate warning out there recommending people don't pressure ferment in this vessel until a fix is found or at least don't use the catching container. Interesting to note this problem has only surfaced since the leak fix has been implemented. My opinion is that the collection Container is not fit for Purpose.
A bit of a ridiculous overreaction on your behalf, I would say. Both of these issues have been from people closing the valve on still fermenting wort/yeast, then leaving it for an extended period of time.
The instruction manual clearly states, "Keep the butterfly valve always open during fermentation. Only close the butterfly valve once fermentation has ceased and hydrometer readings are stable for 3 consecutive days". Maybe people using it just need to take some responsibility and actually read the manual, and follow it before using the product?
Do they really need to state in big letters: 'DON'T BE A DICKHEAD AND CLOSE THIS OFF, THEN LET THE WORT IN IT KEEP FERMENTING AND GET UP TO STUPIDLY HIGH PRESSURES'?
 

soreba

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Do they really need to state in big letters: 'DON'T BE A DICKHEAD AND CLOSE THIS OFF, THEN LET THE WORT IN IT KEEP FERMENTING AND GET UP TO STUPIDLY HIGH PRESSURES'?
+1 If anything they may need to just place something on the lid at the factory saying to read the manual before use like alot of gas heating appliances do. But
If everyone actually read the manual alot of these problems wouldn't happen.

Also, some people just need to actually research conicals & pressure fermentation.. The amount of times i see on the fb groups people asking whether to ferment with the valve open or closed means some people really need to stick to unpressurised buckets.

Its easy enough to create bottle bombs when storing bottled beer.. Are glass bottles not fit for purpose as well?
 

Nullnvoid

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A bit of a ridiculous overreaction on your behalf, I would say. Both of these issues have been from people closing the valve on still fermenting wort/yeast, then leaving it for an extended period of time.
The instruction manual clearly states, "Keep the butterfly valve always open during fermentation. Only close the butterfly valve once fermentation has ceased and hydrometer readings are stable for 3 consecutive days". Maybe people using it just need to take some responsibility and actually read the manual, and follow it before using the product?
Do they really need to state in big letters: 'DON'T BE A DICKHEAD AND CLOSE THIS OFF, THEN LET THE WORT IN IT KEEP FERMENTING AND GET UP TO STUPIDLY HIGH PRESSURES'?
Exactly, I know in my case it was my own stupid fault. Nothing to do with the product, just the stupid user.
 

Meddo

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+1 If anything they may need to just place something on the lid at the factory saying to read the manual before use like alot of gas heating appliances do. But
If everyone actually read the manual alot of these problems wouldn't happen.

Also, some people just need to actually research conicals & pressure fermentation.. The amount of times i see on the fb groups people asking whether to ferment with the valve open or closed means some people really need to stick to unpressurised buckets.

Its easy enough to create bottle bombs when storing bottled beer.. Are glass bottles not fit for purpose as well?
Appropriate analogy, one I considered making myself earlier. We know how easy it can be to cause damage with glass bottles of proper practices aren't followed.

Placing warnings on products isn't sissy, it can help prevent injury. Your anecdote about people on Facebook suggests that these people need to be considered part of the target audience and allowed for when considering designed failsafes, warning labels, and any other risk reduction methods. We all have brain-farts at times, too, as much as most of us like to consider ourselves smarter than the average bear.

I should note that I only flicked through the paperwork and unpacked my unit pretty quickly so there may be warnings/instructions present that I've just forgotten about...
 

Meddo

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Well yeah, it CAN be dangerous - high temperatures, high pressures, chemicals, gases, dodgy wiring jobs, diacetyl-bomb APAs...

All reasonable precautions and all that ;)
 
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Exactly, I know in my case it was my own stupid fault. Nothing to do with the product, just the stupid user.
Not stupid, it can happen quite easily, a small warning label reminder on the collection bottle is no biggie, could save Maurice Blackburn Lawyers coming after you down the track.
Doesn't matter what is written in the manual, that can be side stepped with, ' I didn't understand it' plea.
Had it happen to me with a tenant renting a house off me, $800 or so for a contract, which he signed, worth nothing when he said, I didn't know what I was signing.
 

CEO Keg King

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A bit of a ridiculous overreaction on your behalf, I would say. Both of these issues have been from people closing the valve on still fermenting wort/yeast, then leaving it for an extended period of time.
The instruction manual clearly states, "Keep the butterfly valve always open during fermentation. Only close the butterfly valve once fermentation has ceased and hydrometer readings are stable for 3 consecutive days". Maybe people using it just need to take some responsibility and actually read the manual, and follow it before using the product?
Do they really need to state in big letters: 'DON'T BE A DICKHEAD AND CLOSE THIS OFF, THEN LET THE WORT IN IT KEEP FERMENTING AND GET UP TO STUPIDLY HIGH PRESSURES'?
So you never made a mistake or forgot something? Full marks for defending the indefensible by calling Brewers stupid. Wish I could get away with that and not waste my time trying my best to get our engineers to make safety the main priority. I was not going to post here any more but if anything is ridiculous then it’s this idea that something that can go bang like this and it’s not had any thought put into preventing it should be put down to user stupidity I think it’s fair to post. Someone could get seriously hurt by a Polycarbonate shard and you want to find an excuse in user ignorance? Maybe we could sell cars without brakes as drivers should not use speeds that need them? No point to have fuses or circuit breakers either I suppose. Users should know what can happen. No need for life jackets if you stay out of the water. Safety belts? Who needs them? They are just like unnecessary smoke detectors and safety valves. At least put a bloody warning on it if it can blow. Never heard so much tripe in my life. People make mistakes so we need to make sure they know if there is a risk. For everyone posting here I wonder how many others have been exposed but never said anything.
 

Mya

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A bit of a ridiculous overreaction on your behalf, I would say. Both of these issues have been from people closing the valve on still fermenting wort/yeast, then leaving it for an extended period of time.
The instruction manual clearly states, "Keep the butterfly valve always open during fermentation. Only close the butterfly valve once fermentation has ceased and hydrometer readings are stable for 3 consecutive days". Maybe people using it just need to take some responsibility and actually read the manual, and follow it before using the product?
Do they really need to state in big letters: 'DON'T BE A DICKHEAD AND CLOSE THIS OFF, THEN LET THE WORT IN IT KEEP FERMENTING AND GET UP TO STUPIDLY HIGH PRESSURES'?
Can you honestly and without any shadow of a doubt say that you have read every single line of every single operating manual from every single thing you've purchased? Especially any electronic devices or appliances, they often come with warnings that MOST people completely ignore. What about your entire car manual?

One line in the manual is insufficient if there is a credible risk to personal safety, ESPECIALLY when the line in the manual doesn't even notify you of such risk, it just tells you to do it but not why to do it. Just because you can come to the conclusion as to why this should be the case does not mean that everyone can. It is the obligation of a manufacturer to design instructions and safety features for the lowest common denominator. Common sense is not so common.

Actual safety warnings from larger manufacturers come in standard red font with red box outline and inform you of the safety risk. I doubt this line from the manual was ever intended to act as a safety warning, more just to prevent trub blowouts if you have a pressure differential between the valve when you take the bottle off, and also to prevent undue stress on the butterfly valve seal during normal operation and prolong the seal life.
 

goatchop41

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Someone could get seriously hurt by a Polycarbonate shard and you want to find an excuse in user ignorance? Maybe we could sell cars without brakes as drivers should not use speeds that need them? No point to have fuses or circuit breakers either I suppose. Users should know what can happen. No need for life jackets if you stay out of the water. Safety belts? Who needs them? They are just like unnecessary smoke detectors and safety valves. At least put a bloody warning on it if it can blow. Never heard so much tripe in my life.
You've immediately jumped to hyperbole there, those examples are clearly not comparable to this situation. If we follow the argument that is being made here about safety warnings, then every single homebrew kit that comes with glass bottles should have a big, red warning, in capitals about the possibility of exploding bottles, etc.
Yes, I agree that perhaps some more detailed info in the manual about it would be a good idea, but we also need to put some sort of onus on the user too, to actually learn how to use their equipment and understand the different components of it. We expect the same with power tools, etc. Yes, they have some warnings on them/in the manuals, but they don't cover absolutely everything - there is an element of user responsibility and understanding that must kick in at some point. Let's also not forget how many idiots ignore all of those warnings anyway, operating power tools without PPE, etc.
 

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