Extract - Reducing Costs

[zebba]

Hey all,

Basically, my first 2 brews were the brewcraft impersonation style kits. I knew that you could do things cheaper, but for my first brew I was in the shop just staring with a blank look on my face and no idea what I wanted, and my second I wanted to try a fewthings different to see what changed so I went the same kit.

Third brew was an all-extract job. Problem here was, it was dear. Even dearer then the brewcraft kit. A few tins of misc. goo, yeast, hops, grains - it all added up, and when you compare it to a k&k from the supermarket I was well over double the price.

To give you some idea, the last one I did was a Golden Ale recipe of here that consisted of LME, amber extract, wheat extract, crystal malt and amarillo hops (although I used tettnang - and was VERY happy with the result. Underrated hop IMO)

So this time, after talking to a mate (our very own Warm Beer), he suggested I do a faux all-extract. Buy a generic base kit, and boil the flavour out of it to just give me a bittered base, then add flavour hops, grains, lme, etc. So I'm going to try this route, and already it looks like that will shave a good $10+ off the total cost.

What other tips?

I can come up with:
- Reusing yeast. Currently using the safale range (S-04, US-05), so it's not going to shed much price. I am going to try though cause better to work out the kinks in this process on the cheaper yeasts before I start looking at the liquid jobs.
- Add a little bit of Dex instead of all malts. For me though, that is to reduce the overall sweetness of the beer a tad (i.e. not much dex at all) then it is to reduce the costs.
- Use high alpha hops for bittering instead of doing single hop beers that require large amounts @60mins to get IBU's up.
- Warm Beer also suggested that I get a large bag of LME, and then just get the colour and additional flavours from steeping specialty grains instead of using amber or other extracts, etc.

Your input is VERY welcome

 

[Pollux]

Depends on what you are paying for malt extract.

If you use dry instead of liquid, 25kg bags can be found for roughly $130, I used to use 3kg per 23L batch, which means you'd be looking at a cost of $15.60 in malt for a batch, throw in say $2 for some spec grains, $10 for hops and $4 for a brand new US05 (which you can then culture and reuse)

$31.60 total cost, not too bad really for the equivalent of 2 and a half cases of beer.

It comes down to a compromise between taste and cost.

 

[Swinging Beef]

Mix it up.
Do one beer with all the really tasty, premium bits, then do a budget brew. Reuse last brews yeast, get a kit that's on special, add a fistful of whatever hop is handy. That should reduce costs by up to 25%.
If you have a brew club in your area, some of your friends might be happy for you to appropriate their premium yeast strain slurry, too.

 

[Bribie G]

Hi Zeb

I started off with kits and ldme / dex and hop teabags then, like you, went on to better yeasts, grains etc etc and like yourself I was suddenly up into the mid to high twenties for some of my brews.

I've now gone basically all grain but still make a partial which turns out like a tastier hoppier version of Melbourne Bitter or one of the other mainstream Fosters brews like Fosters or Crownies.

I do a full mash with a local malt like Barrett Burson and boil with some Pride of Ringwood then split it between four 5L cubes. (see 'no chill method'). They last me for a couple of months and for each brew I use:

A bland kit, usually Coopers Lager that provides the basic bittering. I don't boil it.
A cube
A kilo of dex
Bred-up yeast Nottingham or US-05.

The costs work out at more or less:

Malt 17
POR 3

= 5 per cube

Tin on special 10 (if I can find them I get a carton, say big W)

Dex 2.50
Yeast allow .50

So a brew (24 litres into bottles) is around 18 dollars and tastes way better and cleaner than a kits n bits. It's about the same price or maybe a tad more than a supermarket can plus a brew improver. Fair bit stronger too Even with such a seemingly small addition of hops the aroma and taste is surprisingly more intense than many Aus brewery beers. Note that Fosters group put 30% sugars in most of their brews so my original recipe sort of stumbled the same thing which is why I get a good approximation IMHO.

You don't need the full AG setup, a mini mash gives the same results but get the malt in bulk for a discount. I only do a full mash to save time on doing four separate mini mashes. Now again I end up with a kilo of malt hanging around spare and still do a mini anyway to get rid of it, as it's no real hassle.

 

[zebba]

I started off with kits and ldme / dex and hop teabags then, like you, went on to better yeasts, grains etc etc and like yourself I was suddenly up into the mid to high twenties for some of my brews.

Mid 20's? How long ago! My first all extract came out @ $50 for a 23L wort.

 

[manticle]

Mid 20's? How long ago! My first all extract came out @ $50 for a 23L wort.

Don't feel too bad. My first experiments with extract and extras float between 30 and 40 easily and that's probably not including ingredients which last longer than 1 brew (sanitiser, priming sugar etc).

However I just opened a bottle of my first Belgian ale attempt as a tester (and a very impatient tester as it's only been carbonating/conditioning 9 days) and the difference between this and a basic kit (or even the ESB smoked belgian ale kit which I wasn't overly impressed with and that was $40 for 3kg) is amazing.

If I can make myself leave the rest for a good whack of time I'll basically end up with more than two slabs of a chimay equivalent for $40 and considering a 375 ml is $7.5 at my corner bottleshop (my corner bottleshop stocks a few nice beers) that's not bad going. Once I've knocked the process on the head and turned out a few good ones I'll probably try and reduce costs by reducing LME and steeping grains instead.

 

[Bribie G]

shyte

Well I suppose if you go two tins of malt for 28 bucks, a shrink of hops for 8, 5 for the yeast, a bit of this and a bit of that.

If you are not going all grain, as other people have suggested, a cheap kit plus improvements etc can certainly get you a drinkable brew for under 20 dollars a go.

 

[Swinging Beef]

If you are not going all grain, as other people have suggested, a cheap kit plus improvements etc can certainly get you a drinkable brew for under 20 dollars a go.

Actually, it was partly the cost of extract that headed me down the path of all grain brews.
Kits are cheap, at around $20 all up for kit+malt+dex+yeast+hops
But it does start to get closer to $40 when you just use straight extract.
Even worse if your favorite beers are belgians and barley wine!

However, it still takes a massive sting out of the beer buying budget if your really tasty brews DO cost $50 a brew = 60 stubbies.
I cant get 60 stubbies for $50 that I would want to drink as much as my own home brew.

 

[warra48]

Homebrew is cheap, compared to retail prices.

I just paid $23 for a 4 pack of a Belgian Abbey style beer from Wicked Elf direct from the brewery.

Having said that, extract brewing is probable the most costly method of brewing. I did a few extract brews before moving into AG brewing, and the beers were a definite improvement over kit brews.

Kit brewing, and AG if you can buy your grains in bulk, are definitely cheaper.

Harvesting or splitting liquid yeasts certainly also helps to reduce the cost.

 

[Gavo]

As already said, try buying LDME in bulk. I paid $110 for 20kg. Even at $130 it still only works out at $6.50 per kg. Reuse yeast. Use loose hops, (pellets or flowers). Shop around. Most 23 litre brews should be able to be made under $35.

Gavo.

 

[seemax]

You don't even need to buy that much at a time, for example G&G has 5kg LME for $35 ($7/kg), that's comparable to the 25kg cost.

Bulk buys and reusing yeast is where you will save.

For my current brews I'm using Powells Malt ($2.5/kg), maybe 500g tops of specialty malt ($4/kg), saf yeast and pellet hops.


5kg grain - $12.50
0.5kg crystal/cara - $2.00
Saf S-04 - $4.50
60g EKG hops - $5

Total $24 for around 22L , pretty close to $1/L !!

 

[boingk]

What other tips [do you have to save money]?

Go AG, or do kits and bits. Seriously. I think extract is a big, expensive hassle.

I would punt for using a can as the base, then adding a kilo or so of some sort of malt or malt/dex combo. If using malt and dex, I vote a 500g/300g LDME/Dex mix for lighter styles or a 700/300 mix for slightly heavier ones.

After that use grain to style, budgeting for no more than 500g per brew. Add flavour and aroma hops to no more than 50g per brew.

The above will see you spend around $12 on a kit (it doesn't have to be super-great because you're only using it as a pre-bittered base for your brew. I like Coopers Original and Morgans Aussie ranges). 500/300 LDME/Dex mix will set you back around about $5 assuming 8 bucks a kilo for LDME and 3 for Dextrose. Grain will come out around the $3 mark if you buy by the kilo. Hops will be another $5 or so based on an average of $10 per 100g. I state the quantities because you'll want to buy at least those amounts to save in the long run.

All up you're looking at $25 or less per brew, with yeast being taken from master cultures and negating its cost down to between 10 and 50c per brew. Add $3 if using a full kilo of LDME, or $7~10 if using premium 1.5kg liquid malt tins.

Stuff extract, just go the adulterated kit route. It saves you a fair whack and a fair bit of dosh and produces beer which is quite good. Alternatively go AG after you've read the 'brewing in a bag' thread and scrounged a 40L pot and 3-ring burner.

Cheers - boingk

 

[manticle]

Go AG, or do kits and bits. Seriously. I think extract is a big, expensive hassle.

I would punt for using a can as the base, then adding a kilo or so of some sort of malt or malt/dex combo. If using malt and dex, I vote a 500g/300g LDME/Dex mix for lighter styles or a 700/300 mix for slightly heavier ones.

After that use grain to style, budgeting for no more than 500g per brew. Add flavour and aroma hops to no more than 50g per brew.

The above will see you spend around $12 on a kit (it doesn't have to be super-great because you're only using it as a pre-bittered base for your brew. I like Coopers Original and Morgans Aussie ranges). 500/300 LDME/Dex mix will set you back around about $5 assuming 8 bucks a kilo for LDME and 3 for Dextrose. Grain will come out around the $3 mark if you buy by the kilo. Hops will be another $5 or so based on an average of $10 per 100g. I state the quantities because you'll want to buy at least those amounts to save in the long run.

All up you're looking at $25 or less per brew, with yeast being taken from master cultures and negating its cost down to between 10 and 50c per brew. Add $3 if using a full kilo of LDME, or $7~10 if using premium 1.5kg liquid malt tins.

Stuff extract, just go the adulterated kit route. It saves you a fair whack and a fair bit of dosh and produces beer which is quite good. Alternatively go AG after you've read the 'brewing in a bag' thread and scrounged a 40L pot and 3-ring burner.

Cheers - boingk

I see extract as an intermediate step bewteen kk and partial/ag. Sure it may be expensive but it's part of a learning curve rather than a permanent state of affairs. Considering that perspective, it's worth the extra. It's still less than you'd spend on commercial beer.

Learning about hops schedules and different types of malts etc is pushing me further and further toward exercising complete control over the end product and the difference between kk and extract is astounding.

Add to that the expense helps teach the vital virtue of PATIENCE whereas for kk it's not really worth the bother. It tastes ok, it's alcoholic = what the ****. Drink it.

It's a worthwhile stepping stone as far as I can see.

 

[flattop]

$40 will buy me a slab of stubbies (around 8 litres) or a home brew (around 23 litres) so when it comes down to nuts and bolts i am saving money at twice the price.

I rest my case

 

[boingk]

I rest my case

I'm sure as hell not giving mine a rest. To the fridge!

It's a worthwhile stepping stone as far as I can see.

I suppose thats that its about in the end. I guess my point is just that using kits and bits you save yourself an hour of hop boiling [although using grain will make up for that with a mini-mash of 60min], and a fair amount of cost. In my experience I found extract to be not worth it as I found kits adulterated with mini or partial mashes, hops and decent yeast to yield quite decent beer.

Anyway, as long as you are enjoying it. Not my cuppotea but thats the world for you.

Cheers - boingk

 

[Shortz]

Zebba, as soon as you said brewcraft i wondered if that is the reason for the high price.

While i support local homebrew stores, i prefer to travel a bit further to get the same stuff cheaper.

Where about's in Melbourne do you live?

thanks dudes for the tips about using the can as a fermentable base...might save me a few bucks!

 

[smudge]

Mmmmm.......... Brewcraft.

I buy from the sponsors usually and don't get exposed to Brewcraft's products very often...except today.

My LHBS is also the pet shop and tackle shop. After walking past the caged cockies, "Hello...Hello...", stepping over the unpacked
polystyrene boxes of tropical fish, resisting the temptation to pick out one of the hundreds of small yabbies and tossing it into
the "Oscar" tank, I had a look through the hop selection.

Unrefridgerated (and we have had a few 45*C days lately), an Alpha % of between here and there and dust gathering on most of them,
I looked at what was available. Holy shite, they had Amarillo! Double Holy shite!! $17.90 for 100g. Neatly packed though in
the Brewcraft livery.

I got them to fill my two gas bottles - yep, they sell gas too - and walked out.

With the right products, stored in the right conditions, at the right price....I could have spent more than $100 today.

Not that they will ever realise that.

Lots of new brewers start out to save money. The zealouts (including me) who make up a large proportion of AHB's members
get to the stage where the money saved doesn't matter much any more....as long as the beer is spectacular.

Cheers,
smudge

 

[real_beer]

Mmmmm.......... Brewcraft.

I buy from the sponsors usually and don't get exposed to Brewcraft's products very often...except today.

My LHBS is also the pet shop and tackle shop. After walking past the caged cockies, "Hello...Hello...", stepping over the unpacked
polystyrene boxes of tropical fish, resisting the temptation to pick out one of the hundreds of small yabbies and tossing it into
the "Oscar" tank, I had a look through the hop selection.

Unrefridgerated (and we have had a few 45*C days lately), an Alpha % of between here and there and dust gathering on most of them,
I looked at what was available. Holy shite, they had Amarillo! Double Holy shite!! $17.90 for 100g. Neatly packed though in
the Brewcraft livery.

I got them to fill my two gas bottles - yep, they sell gas too - and walked out.

With the right products, stored in the right conditions, at the right price....I could have spent more than $100 today.

Not that they will ever realise that.

Lots of new brewers start out to save money. The zealouts (including me) who make up a large proportion of AHB's members
get to the stage where the money saved doesn't matter much any more....as long as the beer is spectacular.

Cheers,
smudge

Great work smudge,

That's exactly what I do. I don't complain or carry on about bad service or poor quality goods just walk out and take my money and business elsewhere. Then spread the word if asked for advice about where to shop, the next 12 or 18 months should sort a lot of this problem out through competitive attrition, one can only hope.

Cheers :icon_cheers:

 

[zebba]

Where about's in Melbourne do you live?

I'm in Berwick.

I've checked the prices I'm getting from my LHBS and I'm not getting ripped off, by any stretch. Some stuff is a little dearer, some a little cheaper. It's definately the way I'm doing things and not my supplier that is the prime cause for extreme costs.

Today I'm putting on a faux-extract using a tin of lager goo, boiled, as a base to which I'll add some ldme, dex, crystal, amarillo and willamette. I'm excited, and if it turns out half as good as my last $50 all extract I'll be happy as

Will def. be looking at some bigger bags of LDME.

Regarding yeast harvesting - how do people go harvesting S-04? That stuff turns into a bloody rock if you let it sit for more then 30 seconds...

 

[MarkBastard]

Cheap, Easy, and Tasty. Three attributes of beer. You can usually only pick two though.

Commercial beer is Easy and Tasty when it's not cheap.
Commercial can be cheap and easy, but taste crap
Home brew can be cheap and easy (kits) but taste like crap
Home brew can be cheap and tasty (all grain) but take a lot of effort comparitively
Home brew can be easy and tasty (fresh wort kits) but cost a bit

Extracts are a happy medium for a lot of people.