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Electronic Hlt, Water Heater Kit I'm Putting Together

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I wouldn't think it could be an scr as these need complex control circuits, not just a wee little potentiometer. I must say I am quite confused as to what this control device is.
 
Im with you Rob2.
Lets see a real circuit diagram showing what the components do, not just pictures of where the wires connect.
Im a sparky (been out of the trade for a while) and still cant figure out what this thing does.
 
Im with you Rob2.
Lets see a real circuit diagram showing what the components do, not just pictures of where the wires connect.
Im a sparky (been out of the trade for a while) and still cant figure out what this thing does.
Yes it is intriguing how a device which looks like it is just wired in series with the active wire with no neutral connection actually powers itself up? There must be some sort of parasitic power using the active to the heater element as the neutral for the device to energise itself
 
Yes it is intriguing how a device which looks like it is just wired in series with the active wire with no neutral connection actually powers itself up? There must be some sort of parasitic power using the active to the heater element as the neutral for the device to energise itself

It is an SSR that is running off direct active and neutral from the element, is a seal unit and if anyone wants to open one, then they can buy one and show us the pictures.

The circuit diagram is exactly as shown in the picture. No gimmicks, no ********, go build your complex devices if you think this controller don't work. I know it works.

I have already sold several units and am waiting for those buyers to get on here and tell you how good this this thing is, because some here don't seem to believe how such a simple thing works so good.

The only 2 problems potential buyers have is deciding how to safely mount it in some type of enclosure and what size element to use in the vessel!
 
OK, it got the better of me and I have done some investigation. Heres a simple explaination.

A conventional (mechanical) relay is like a switch. It is either on or off.
A SSR (solid state relay) controlled with a potentiometer (variable resistor) adjusts the output phase angle which reduces the output voltage.
If the control resistance is high, the output voltage is low. If the output voltage is low, the output voltage is high.
In a nutshell, the result is like a dimmer on a light circuit. By the way, dont try to put a light dimmer on an element, it will last about 1 second before going up in smoke.
This is not temperature control, it is voltage regulator. The lower the voltage, the less heat produced by the element. The element will not turn off when the water gets to a certain temperature, for that you need a thermostat.

If I have missed something, or got something wrong, let me know.
 
No gimmicks, no ********, go build your complex devices if you think this controller don't work. I know it works.

Or better still, go buy a mashmate and an element of 2400 watts. No relay needed and it will tell you the temp and keep the water at the set temp.....as most home brewers know.
icon_cheers.gif

And will only cost $88 for the controller and $35 for the element. You still need enclosure for either set up.


I have already sold several units and am waiting for those buyers to get on here and tell you how good this this thing is, because some here don't seem to believe how such a simple thing works so good.

Yeah, I can't wait either.

The only 2 problems potential buyers have is deciding how to safely mount it in some type of enclosure and what size element to use in the vessel!

One other problem....checking the temp. Either use a thermometer and keep re-setting this unit, or buy a mashmate and set and forget.....I have enough to do on brew day without trying to monitor the water temp.

If anyone is really interested on what this unit does go here [post="0"]http://www.answers.com/topic/solid-state-relay-1[/post]
And you will see that this is just a solid state relay and a variable resistor.

Cheers,
Bud
 
This is not temperature control, it is voltage regulator. The lower the voltage, the less heat produced by the element. The element will not turn off when the water gets to a certain temperature, for that you need a thermostat.

If I have missed something, or got something wrong, let me know.

You pretty much gotit there, it's the same as a dimmer control, like for the elements on an electric kitchen hotplate/stove. Reducing the heat the element outputs, maintains the temperature against overall heat lose, like when you are simmering a stew, you turn it on full at the start, then later, turn it down to simmer.
 
Well I don't really care how it works, just if it does work which Carbonator assures us it does. For urn control this unit is fine and I'm very interested in obtaining some kits for my project. I don't see why not knowing much "about HLT" should disqualify someone from selling a bit of kit that cold be used for a variety of application. The guy is trying to offer a product at a (probably) reasonable price, why the need for an inquisition? Carbonator any news on the 3.6K element?
 
Or better still, go buy a mashmate and an element of 2400 watts. No relay needed and it will tell you the temp and keep the water at the set temp.....as most home brewers know.
icon_cheers.gif

And will only cost $88 for the controller and $35 for the element. You still need enclosure for either set up.




Yeah, I can't wait either.



One other problem....checking the temp. Either use a thermometer and keep re-setting this unit, or buy a mashmate and set and forget.....I have enough to do on brew day without trying to monitor the water temp.

If anyone is really interested on what this unit does go here [post="0"]http://www.answers.com/topic/solid-state-relay-1[/post]
And you will see that this is just a solid state relay and a variable resistor.

Cheers,
Bud

Look mate, if you don't have a need for this kit then fine but why are you trying to convince us that the guy is trying to rip us off or something? Not helpful.
 
Look mate, if you don't have a need for this kit then fine but why are you trying to convince us that the guy is trying to rip us off or something? Not helpful.


Go for it mate
biggrin.gif

Not trying to convince anyone of anything.
Just trying to point out to those not as knowledgeable as you, what the pitfalls of this are if they don't know.
 
You pretty much gotit there, it's the same as a dimmer control, like for the elements on an electric kitchen hotplate/stove. Reducing the heat the element outputs, maintains the temperature against overall heat lose, like when you are simmering a stew, you turn it on full at the start, then later, turn it down to simmer.

Not quite right there Carbonator.
Most traditional stove elements are controlled by simmerstats. The element only has one heat when its turned on, but the simmerstat controls the amount of time the element is turn on and turned off. at the lowest setting the element in on for one cycle and off for 7 cycles, at medium it is on for 4 off for 4, at high it is on for 8 cycles (constantly on).
Go and check it out and you will see what I am talking about, you can even hear the switching sometimes (may not apply to modern induction cooktops, I dunno, been out of the game for too long).
A dimmer, like your SSR with potenitiometer, regulates voltage, which regulates brightness of the light/heat of the element, but the light/element remains on the whole time.
 
if its only controlling voltage, wont the element stay on, just a bit lower, thus still (slowly) increasing the temp?
 
this sounds like its turning into a chest beating exercise about who knows more than who.... if you doubt him dont buy it. <_<
 
I brought 1 of these on EBay

The unit was exactly as described and the delivery was very fast, all round just what I wanted and a fast painless transaction.

The chip is rated to 40 Amps (9.6 KW), personally I would be reluctant to run it at anything like that sort of power without a hell of a good heat sink. In fact I would fit a heat sink as a matter of course.

If you can see this being of use to you dont be afraid of spending the dollars.

1 satisfied customer

MHB
 
if its only controlling voltage, wont the element stay on, just a bit lower, thus still (slowly) increasing the temp?

That is exactly what I said.
It was a stove element controlled by a simmerstat that turns on and off
 
I have an Omron 40A SSR in my HLT circuit. From memory, they are only rated to 3A continuous load without a heat sink, not 10A as you stated earlier, Carbonator.

I don't know who you are, or what qualifications you have, but I hope you realise that you have a duty of care to your customers that involves supplying comprehensive operating instructions with the product and warnings about the risks of playing with electricity. Remember this is the world where someone can put an RV on a highway, set the cruise control, walk out back to make a cup of coffee then sue the RV company when it crashed for a gazillion dollars because there were no adequate warnings or operating instructions supplied with the product..... I **** you not

For anyone interested, I got my heatsink rated for a 40A SSR from here
 
Remember this is the world where someone can put an RV on a highway, set the cruise control, walk out back to make a cup of coffee then sue the RV company when it crashed for a gazillion dollars because there were no adequate warnings or operating instructions supplied with the product..... I **** you not

Not to downlplay the risks of dealing with electicity and complex high load devices, but I am sure tired of that cruise control urban myth. http://www.snopes.com/autos/techno/cruise.asp

cheers

grant
 
For all you folks trying to defend the seller, stand down - either he is deliberately trying to mislead you, or he has no idea what he's selling. Either way, it doesn't do the job it's advertised to do - it is not a "Solid State temperature controller to adjust the heat better than a thermostat". It's not a temperature controller of any description, it can't possibly be, because there is no way for the "controller" to know what the temperature is. There's no sensor immersed in the water, no feedback. The best one might hope for is that it's adjusting the power supplied to the element, rather like a light dimmer. Since the seller hasn't deigned to tell us what the controller is, I can't say for certain exactly how it operates, but my educated guess would be that it's operating exactly like a light dimmer, using an SCR with a simple RC circuit for triggering. Without a manufacturer and part number I also can't tell you how much it should cost, but if you wanted to build a 10 or 15A one yourself with discrete components you'd probably get change from $20 at Farnell.

Phase angle triggering is one of the worst ways to modulate power for heating elements, because when you switch large currents on or off in the middle of a cycle you generate massive amounts of noise on the supply. Don't expect to use a tv or stereo in the same house at the same time. The only reason to use it is because it's a very cheap method which is appropriate for small loads, like lights. The cheap factor is completely removed if you're paying $200 for a fat dimmer, an element, a pot and a socket.

The sensible way to do it is to use zero-crossing switching and turn the element on for a number of half-cycles, then off for a number of half-cycles. The percentage of on-time dictates the percentage of full power the element receives, and because it is switched when the mains power crosses zero, there is no high frequency noise produced. This is the method that any PID controller worth its salt uses. PID controllers are an expensive control method, but I can't see it costing anyone $200 to put together an element and a PID controller.

If you don't want to use a PID controller, an on-off thermostat control as suggested by other people in this thread is a perfectly valid option. In a large vessel, with low hysteresis you can get variations smaller than a degree. That beats the arse off a dial you have to fiddle with based on the amount of liquid in the vessel, ambient temperature, airflow etc.

BTW with a threaded element like that, welding a socket on isn't vital - it can be installed using an appropriate sized nut in the same way that a weldless valve would be installed. These elements shouldn't cost more than $30.

I appreciate the need to make a profit when selling a product. I don't, however, have any time for a seller who misleads his potential customers, either deliberately or through ignorance of his own product. And if you're only making a small, reasonable profit margin on these kits, then you're getting ripped off - you haven't done your research and found the parts you're selling for a sensible price.
 
Not to downlplay the risks of dealing with electicity and complex high load devices, but I am sure tired of that cruise control urban myth. http://www.snopes.com/autos/techno/cruise.asp

cheers

grant

Yeah well my bad for taking it on face value and using it as an extreme example, but I will bet my ass if you bundle together some electrical components, advertise them on the internet (which is being done here, and is effectively retailing) and someone whose confidence outweighs their ability buys them without instructions or a safe operating manual, and bodges it, harms themselves or burns their house down, the first person insurance companies, workcover or remaining relatives will come hunting for is you. At best it will cost you far more than you made out of the quick dollars scheme you thought up, at worst your ass will be the new meat at Her Majesty's Hotel.

I'm not trying to have a whinge about someone trying to make a dollar, just being the devil's advocate on the other side...

:lol: I was wondering how long it would take you to find your way here, LC... :p
 

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