Earthing kettle element

[Barge]

I'm just trying to understand how a weld free element is safer than installing your own. That has now been explained to me thanks to yourself and takai.

I'm not questioning its necessity, I was just looking for a more informative response than "you might die". I get that 240V is dangerous, I just wanted to clarify how different setups such as weld free or earthing the enclosure also earths the pot at the same time.

 

[Mardoo]

And thanks for your persistence. This is something I've been thinking about lately.

 

[Camo6]

I'm just trying to understand how a weld free element is safer than installing your own. That has now been explained to me thanks to yourself and takai.

I'm not questioning its necessity, I was just looking for a more informative response than "you might die". I get that 240V is dangerous, I just wanted to clarify how different setups such as weld free or earthing the enclosure also earths the pot at the same time.

Yeah, sorry if I sound like a bug bear but this subject is being drilled into me ATM. Just wanted to contribute for future readers who might read this thread while considering the same.

No point making beer if you can't drink it.

 

[Barge]

Absolutely. That's why I'm asking.

Seems weird that we emphasise the importance of earthing and having worked checked by a sparky and then retailers advertise elements that you screw in and you're ready to go. I reckon plenty of blokes might've installed them but not made sure of good contact with the pot. Equally, I reckon there's probably a few enclosures that are earthed but are isolated from the pot.

Anyhow, thanks for the info.

 

[spog]

I have 2 of these Kmart kettle elements in my keggle I used the silicone O ring that came from the original kettle housing.
My keggle elements were installed by me following the procedure posted on an English HB site and using IEC connections/ cords.
I have the required leakage switches in my shed power board were I brew,I have been using this setup for a good 6 + years and I am still here.
Could be through sheer good luck but a sparky did say it would be fine.
My 2 c worth.

 

[Camo6]

It's not sheer good luck Spog. An earth is a safety measure. You could use those elements everyday for a millennia and never have a problem. The earth is there for the remote chance that one day there is a problem.
Sure a sparky might say it's fine but try and get him to sign off on it.

 

[takai]

It is a matter of risk management. There are plenty of things that are ok without an earth, but a conductive vessel full of conductive liquid isn't one of them. Double insulated LV transformers, no problem.

 

[booargy]

The earth cable provides a path to earth that has a lower resistance than a body. The element sheath will be earthed. A visible earth to the vessel is a good idea.

 

[Pokey]

I'm just trying to understand how a weld free element is safer than installing your own. That has now been explained to me thanks to yourself and takai.
I'm not questioning its necessity, I was just looking for a more informative response than "you might die". I get that 240V is dangerous, I just wanted to clarify how different setups such as weld free or earthing the enclosure also earths the pot at the same time.

The weld less element should be installed as part of an electrical installation which will include earthing of the outer sheath and exposed non double insulated metals. The element removed from a kettle should already have the connection from the IEC plug to the element sheath. The way I see it they should both be earthed it just happens in different ways
And apart from the saving life, I've seen a switchboard completely burnt out because of a bad earth

 

[spog]

Pics of the kettle elements in my rig using IEC plugs with silicone tube off cuts acting as a splash guard and the LEDs poking out of the top which show me that they are powered when in use.
The elements come from a K mart kettle and the silicone wall washer from the kettle was used also,the kettles were double insulated,I didn't cut or alter any of the wiring so are you blokes telling me I am seriously at risk of frying myself ?
I'll get a sparky mate to run his over it again but the sparky who eye balled it originally gave it the nod.

Cheers...spog...

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

One end of the element is connected to neutral, which in turn is bonded to earth

If you going to put an element into a metal vessel, you need to earth the vessel

Having a floating circuit is NOT a good idea as you can get potential differences at an earth level then can be dangerous

Earth the vessel.

Earth currents can be higher than you think

 

[mudd]

So I'm thinking an earth bond to the same circuit the power comes from is in order. In my case I have element from reputable hbs in my liquor tank. I'll have check out how I mounted it. I was thinking of putting an additional element in to speed up brew day thanks for this thread a few tips on how to make sure its OK.

So what about that steel framed brew stand the kettles sitting on. Wouldn't it make sense to earth that as well.
Cheers Mudd.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Earth the vessel directly to the green wire of your cable via a crimped lug on a threaded post Easiest way is to weld a small stainless bolt to the vessel

An earth connection should be VERY robust and be the very last connection to break

Do not bond the element neutral to the vessel, this defeats the purpose of an ELCB

If you are using a metal vessel with an electric element and you havnt got the vessel earthed, you are a ******* idiot

Remember thats its full of water, and if the element fails and the pot comes live, you could die, true story.

Earthing is actually way more important than what most people would think

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

So what about that steel framed brew stand the kettles sitting on. Wouldn't it make sense to earth that as well.
Cheers Mudd.

Wont hurt to bond it togethor

 

[Barge]

I was thinking of setting up something along these lines

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/heating-elements?page=7

Do you think the contact between the kettle and the enclosure via the washer is enough for a good earth?

Might have to go the stainless bolt idea instead.

 

[Tex N Oz]

I don't think earthing the element is necessary for code as long as the vessel that holds the medium you are heating is earthed or insulated (plastic). Should the element refractory be compromised and expose the filament, the path to ground will instantly be the vessel through that medium. If your medium is deionised water, then you are insulated from the potential difference by that.
With that said, if someone handed me a metal kettle with a 2 prong plug, I'd show it to the tip, quick smart.
Residual current devices trip at 32ma by code, but that's enough to get your attention. Albeit not enough to kill you, it freakin hurts like all shit.

I agree with Camo6. Anything you can do to help prevent gettin your dick knocked in the dirt is good practice. There's nothing good about gettin zapped. Best case scenario you get a punch in the guts and you taste copper for a week.... and the other is a dirt nap. I only use copper elements (Australian or US made) and I always silver solder my ground straight to the case.

Try and stay away from those China made elements. They're shit and dangerous in my opinion.

 

[Camo6]

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Pics of the kettle elements in my rig using IEC plugs with silicone tube off cuts acting as a splash guard and the LEDs poking out of the top which show me that they are powered when in use.
The elements come from a K mart kettle and the silicone wall washer from the kettle was used also,the kettles were double insulated,I didn't cut or alter any of the wiring so are you blokes telling me I am seriously at risk of frying myself ?
I'll get a sparky mate to run his over it again but the sparky who eye balled it originally gave it the nod.

Cheers...spog...

Spog, the kettles you took the elements from were double insulated as they were made from plastic and no conductive parts were exposed. Now that they're fixed to a metal vessel they're not double insulated and it'd be worth earthing the pot for your own safety.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Spog, the kettles you took the elements from were double insulated as they were made from plastic and no conductive parts were exposed. Now that they're fixed to a metal vessel they're not double insulated and you should earth the pot for your own safety.

 

[Barge]

I'm thinking of setting it up as shown below. This is from a youtube vid of a bloke who as installed the same type of element.



I'm not happy to leave it like this however.

I'm thinking a waterproof enclosure and cable gland and then connecting the enclosure to the same earth as the element.

As I asked earlier, the kettle would be in contact with the enclosure in a similar manner to here

I'm just not sure the contact between the element and the enclosure is sufficient for a good earth this way.

 

[Tex N Oz]

I'm thinking of setting it up as shown below. This is from a youtube vid of a bloke who as installed the same type of element.

Capture.JPG

I'm not happy to leave it like this however.

I'm thinking a waterproof enclosure and cable gland and then connecting the enclosure to the same earth as the element.

As I asked earlier, the kettle would be in contact with the enclosure in a similar manner to here

I'm just not sure the contact between the element and the enclosure is sufficient for a good earth this way.

Why not Just knock a 4 mm hole in the side of the kettle and jump that ground wire over from the back of the element to a flathead bolt ?

If in doubt, check it with an Ohm meter. All it needs is less than 1Ω resistance and you'd be sweet if you have an RCD inline..