Does dry hopping add bitterness?

[abyss]

All of my Aussie style goo brews, both lagers and ales are dry hopped. Usually with POR or Cluster or both as a base and I ad stuff like DR Rudi, Simcoe, Saaz, Ella, Tettnanger, Nelson Sauvin, Fuggles,EKG Galaxy etc but not always.
I can definitely taste the bitterness and love it.
The aroma and back of the throat bitterness is addictive to me.
When I used to steep my hops I found it too bitter and the beer seemed to have less head.
Put **** on me for dry hopping with POR if you wish but it is my go to dry hop.
Aussie Aussie Aussie POR POR POR.

Time for another Middy.

mmmmm......Yum.

Time for another....

 

[Bribie G]

The OP was "does dry hopping add bitterness" and not "does dry hopping increase IBUs of the beer".

As pointed to Wikipedia early in the thread, good old Wiki states that IBU does not depend on perceived bitterness. Without knowing the background history of the IBU and EBU scales I'd guess they were introduced as a method for the brewing industry to get bang for the buck from their hop purchases and contracts, based on the AA of the hops as tested, and from this they can calculate the expected IBU of the finished beer. Apart from purchasing hops they also need to be able to consistenty control bitterness. That's fine - and essential - for the majority of the World's brands if you are talking about megalagers, Corona, Bud, VB etc and even German mainstreams where accurate hop calculations are essential.

I'd guess that until recently, dry hopping was rare outside some UK special or heritage brands, and US craft beers since the 70s.

 

[brewdjoffe]

The OP was "does dry hopping add bitterness" and not "does dry hopping increase IBUs of the beer".

As pointed to Wikipedia early in the thread, good old Wiki states that IBU does not depend on perceived bitterness. Without knowing the background history of the IBU and EBU scales I'd guess they were introduced as a method for the brewing industry to get bang for the buck from their hop purchases and contracts, based on the AA of the hops as tested, and from this they can calculate the expected IBU of the finished beer. Apart from purchasing hops they also need to be able to consistenty control bitterness. That's fine - and essential - for the majority of the World's brands if you are talking about megalagers, Corona, Bud, VB etc and even German mainstreams where accurate hop calculations are essential.

I'd guess that until recently, dry hopping was rare outside some UK special or heritage brands, and US craft beers since the 70s.

To answer the second of the OPs questions. If you are chasing a smoother bitterness or even lower IBUs with a pronounced hop profile, try using a first wort hop for about 1/3 of your intended IBUS and the rest of the IBUs at whirlpool. Dont forget to use software that accounts for IBUs at whirlpool as some of them count it as 0 which is not the case.
Also look for hops with a low cohumulone content (sub 35%). Higher cohumulone hops tend to add a harsh bitterness if used early in the boil eg Galaxy.

Using the above schedule (I usually chuck a few in at 10 minutes too) you should get plenty of flavour and aroma without the need to dry hop.

Thanks guys. Very helpful.

Droopy Brew - in my mind, first wort hopping equates to more bitterness with not as much flavour. I'm planning on brewing a SMaSH APA this weekend with a batch of Citra I just got my hands on.

Planned hop schedule is as follows:

15g Citra 30 mins
30g Citra 15 mins
30g Citra 5 mins
60g Citra Whilrpool
60g Citra Dry hop at 10 days

In my brewing software this equals 44 IBUs. I really want a juicy hop punch to shine through, which is why I thought my first hop addition should be at 30 minutes. The hop schedule at the end of the boil might be a bit over the top - I could probably bunch the 15 and 5 mins together. I might forego the dry hop this time as well just as an experiment.

Any thoughts?

 

[Droopy Brew]

It looks like you are doing what you have always done so I would expect the results to be the same.

It is a bit of a quirk but FWH actually contributes less IBUs than 60 minute additions. This is due to the extraction of other oils and reduced isomerisation of AAs at sub 80C temperatures. Do a search on FWH as there are some good discussions detailing the technical aspects that I wont go into here. Also, and I have found this to be true along with other brewers I have spoken with who use a similar schedule, the oils extracted at these temperatures tends to increase both the aroma and stability of aroma in the finished product. Aroma stability is an issue with dry hopping as it can dissipate quickly.

I find brewers friend is a good program as it accounts for the lower IBU contribution of FWH and IBU contribution from Whirlpool hops.

I would go with something like this, I have made assumptions on batch size, efficiency etc but lets say 23L for OG 1.050 using 4.8kg pale malt and 75% efficiency

12g Citra (13% aa) FWH - 11.4 IBUs
20g Citra (13% aa) 5min- 6.25 IBUs
80g Citra (13% aa) whirlpool- 18.1 IBUs (assuming 4% utilisation)

Total 35.75 IBUs and you should find those hops will shine.

The other thing is to look at your water. If you do add salts for you water profile, try for approx 100mg/L Ca and 200mg/L SO4, this will help showcase the hops a bit.
If not, dont worry about it, see how the new hopping schedule goes and if you are still having problems, look at adding some Gypsum and CaCl2 to adjust your water profile the next time round.


Edit: I just put your hop schedule into Brewers friend. If my assumptions about your batch size and OG are correct then you end up with 44IBUs from the 30 min, 15min and 5min addition alone. This tells me you software doesn't account for IBUs in the whirlpool. You would actually end up with 58 IBUs. Jump on Brewers Friend and see how you go.

 

[damoninja]

Absolutely not, dry hoping can't add any bitterness because Alpha Acids are practically insoluble in "cold" (say under 60oC) water/wort/beer and don't become soluble until isomerised by boiling (or at least being hot for a long time).

So If I add 90 kilos to a 20L batch I shouldn't expect it to be bitter

Got it

 

[brewdjoffe]

It looks like you are doing what you have always done so I would expect the results to be the same.

It is a bit of a quirk but FWH actually contributes less IBUs than 60 minute additions. This is due to the extraction of other oils and reduced isomerisation of AAs at sub 80C temperatures. Do a search on FWH as there are some good discussions detailing the technical aspects that I wont go into here. Also, and I have found this to be true along with other brewers I have spoken with who use a similar schedule, the oils extracted at these temperatures tends to increase both the aroma and stability of aroma in the finished product. Aroma stability is an issue with dry hopping as it can dissipate quickly.

I find brewers friend is a good program as it accounts for the lower IBU contribution of FWH and IBU contribution from Whirlpool hops.

I would go with something like this, I have made assumptions on batch size, efficiency etc but lets say 23L for OG 1.050 using 4.8kg pale malt and 75% efficiency

12g Citra (13% aa) FWH - 11.4 IBUs
20g Citra (13% aa) 5min- 6.25 IBUs
80g Citra (13% aa) whirlpool- 18.1 IBUs (assuming 4% utilisation)

Total 35.75 IBUs and you should find those hops will shine.

The other thing is to look at your water. If you do add salts for you water profile, try for approx 100mg/L Ca and 200mg/L SO4, this will help showcase the hops a bit.
If not, dont worry about it, see how the new hopping schedule goes and if you are still having problems, look at adding some Gypsum and CaCl2 to adjust your water profile the next time round.


Edit: I just put your hop schedule into Brewers friend. If my assumptions about your batch size and OG are correct then you end up with 44IBUs from the 30 min, 15min and 5min addition alone. This tells me you software doesn't account for IBUs in the whirlpool. You would actually end up with 58 IBUs. Jump on Brewers Friend and see how you go.

Thanks for all the advice - absolutely great!

I'll follow your lead and let you know how it goes. I was using the BrewLog app on my phone, which probably isn't the most accurate software so I'll jump on Brewers Friend. Thanks again!

 

[Droopy Brew]

Please do. I look forward to hearing the outcome.

 

[micka80]

https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/1762-hop-polyphenols-advanced-brewing

This article may help. I as well can vouch for the extra perceived bitterness from dry hopping.

 

[Droopy Brew]

Great article. Thanks.

 

[Mr B]

With the FWH, do you add a time?

A 60m addition is obvious, but in Beersmith a first wort hop has a time as well - is this the estimated total time from when the hops are added to the end of the boil?

Or does the advice that this addition contributes less IBU's mean that the bitterness essentially starts at a certain temperature?

 

[Brewnicorn]

I have/had a possibly off topic question: but definitely related: the liquid hop shots available for some hop varietals, I'd read on the blog recently are useful as a top up at bottling time to ensure aroma expectations are met. What about the IBU, either perceptions or actually impacted on flavour. Any takers? Don't yell at me if I'm too far removed from the topic.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

With the FWH, do you add a time?

A 60m addition is obvious, but in Beersmith a first wort hop has a time as well - is this the estimated total time from when the hops are added to the end of the boil?

Or does the advice that this addition contributes less IBU's mean that the bitterness essentially starts at a certain temperature?

For FWH the time is the boil time, eg I add my bittering hops as FWH and then calculate their contribution on the boil time (in may case usually 90 minutes).

For bitterness calculation the usual recommendation is to add about 10% for FWH as the utilisation increases due to the extra time at high temperature. I tried to make a more accurate estimator for my bitterness calculations but it depends on a 3 dimensional matrix of time / oP / temperature through the runoff and the data input is too onerous to be bothered with.

In any case I am not alone in thinking that the calculation is moot: FWH gives a hop character which is less strident so while the measured IBU might be higher, in terms of overall balance it's a wash.

 

[Bougie!st]

Just for my 2c

Just did a light pale ale, aiming to be kinda like the pacific ale, but with ella, galaxy and citra. Schedule as follows:

Grain - 3kg american ale malt, 1.5kg wheat malt, 0.1kg acidulated for pH

10g galaxy @10
10g citra @5
20g each of citra/ella/galaxy for whirlpool
est IBU (BS2) 28 (includes contribution from whirlpool)

Came out beautiful - so much so that the my wife was almost ready to start drinking beer.

Then I dry hopped it with 20g each of citra/ella/galaxy. Now it tastes like I'm chewing on the hop pellets (which I do do just to taste them to understand them better). Very disappointed and hoping that time will improve things. The aroma is great, and it will be drinkable, but it is definitely not what I was shooting for. Agree that it is a short lasting bitterness, but there is definitely a change in what I'm tasting. I've not had such a change with any of my previous beers - maybe the light malt base has something to do with it as well.

Will fine it this time, with the hope it pulls some of the bitterness out (probs not but anyway), and naturally carbonate it in the keg, again hoping to scrub out some of the bitterness with the hopes the yeasties fix some of it up.

Thanks to all the contributors for the links and info above - helped me to understand what is going on. Props to you all!