Do You Stress Over Infection?

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That's interesting if it's true. Which organisms are these "lots", yeasts or bacteria? How common are they? Presumably they could get in the primary fermentation as well as dirty bottles. I have done hundreds of brews and never seen anything like that. If it happens so easily you would think it was more common.

Well, the standard beer spoilage organisms are wild yeasts and lactic acid bacteria of a few different varieties. Most of them can cause supperattenuation and therefore overcarbonation and therefore bottle bombs. And yes, they can and do get in primary fermantation, where they are just as likely to cause trouble. I fail to see your point.

I didn't say it was likely, it isn't particularly (assuming the bottles are at least clean)but you said Kev was wrong, he wasn't, you were.
 
Well, the standard beer spoilage organisms are wild yeasts and lactic acid bacteria of a few different varieties. Most of them can cause supperattenuation and therefore overcarbonation and therefore bottle bombs. And yes, they can and do get in primary fermantation, where they are just as likely to cause trouble. I fail to see your point.

I didn't say it was likely, it isn't particularly (assuming the bottles are at least clean)but you said Kev was wrong, he wasn't, you were.

Kev was claiming that a dirty bottle might cause a bottle bomb and injury. I don't see any evidence of that, and no-one has presented any here, apart from vague assertions about spoilage organisms, and stories of gushers. If superattenuation was a serious risk of bottle bombs, it would happen more often in the normal course of beer brewing, because the wild yeasts would also be able to get in at other points of the process. In 15 years of home brewing I have never seen superattenuation or had a bottle bomb, I don't think it is a significant risk.
 
Ask Acasta. He had a bottle explode and stab him or his friend in the arm.
 
No, never.

I stress more about the days I believed iodophor to be a 'no rinse sanitizer' and my technique at the time reflected the assumption that it was a fairly benign germ killer rather than an acid laden industrial strength disinfectant.
Now I actually use the recommended dilution rates and make sure bottles & fermenters are dry before any wort / beer hits them.

I'm also pretty loose when it comes to sloshing the bleach around - so I may be building a tolerance to harsh cleaning products.

Still, I've yet to dump a batch due to infection - that's the main thing.
 


OK, I tried to find out imformation on the net about superattenuation, couldn't find much. I did a search of science direct, without much luck.


fount this article - "Beer spoilage bacteria and hop resistance" by Kanta Sakamoto 2003


Beer has been recognized for hundreds of years as
a safe beverage. It is hard to spoil and has a remarkable microbiological stability. The reason is that beer
is an unfavorable medium for many microorganisms
due to the presence of ethanol (0.5 10% w/w), hop
bitter compounds (approximately 17 55 ppm of isoa-acids), the high content of carbondioxide (approximately 0.5% w/w), the low pH (3.8 4.7), the extremely reduced content of oxygen ( < 0.1 ppm) and
the presence of only traces of nutritive substances
such as glucose, maltose and maltotriose. These latter
carbon sources have been substrates for brewing yeast
during fermentation. As a result, pathogens such as
Salmonellae typhimurium and Staphylococcus aureus
do not grow or survive in beer (Bunker, 1955).
However, in spite of these unfavorable features, a
few microorganisms still manage to grow in beer.
These, so-called beer spoilage microorganisms, can
cause an increase of turbidity and unpleasant sensory
changes of beer. Needless to say that these changes
can affect negatively not only the quality of final
product but also the financial gain of the brewing
companies.
A number of microorganisms have been reported
to be beer spoilage microorganisms, among which
both Gram-positive and Gram-negative bacteria, as
well as so-called wild yeasts. Gram-positive beer
spoilage bacteria include lactic acid bacteria belonging to the genera Lactobacillus and Pediococcus.
They are recognized as the most hazardous bacteria
for breweries since these organisms are responsible
for approximately 70% of the microbial beer-spoilage
incidents (Back, 1994). The second group of beer
spoilage bacteria is Gram-negative bacteria of the
genera Pectinatus and Megasphaera. The roles of
these strictly anaerobic bacteria in beer spoilage have
increased since the improved technology in modern
breweries has resulted in significant reduction of
oxygen content in the final products. Wild yeasts do
cause less serious spoilage problem than bacteria but
are considered a serious nuisance to brewers because
of the difficulty to discriminate them from brewing
yeasts.
 
Greg, you're correct about such an occurrence not being highly likely. Thirsty Boy said the same thing. So, there is agreement to some extent. Although Greg, I don't understand how this leads to your claim the science is little more than vague assertions. The potential existence of beer spoiling organisms at all stages of a beer's life is an indisputable, often observed and measured scientific fact. Irrespective of the likelihood, a possible outcome may be excessive pressure in the bottle.

I know you have been brewing for years but that doesn't mean the education is over. There is a mountain of material covering beer spoiling organisms. It may be time for some reading. Just because you don't know about something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
 
I'm a very new brewer and I am wondering how you know you have an infection. Are there specific signs? If an infected beer is still drinkable I'm not sure I'd be able to tell.

cheers

Matt
 
Exploding bottles is a good indication despite what some people believe.
Also a ring on the bottle neck can indicate an infection, some infections smell pretty bad and will look pretty bad as well, although some infections don't.
If your beer attenuates a lot more than expected you should be wary, it's also true that not all infections will cause the beer to attenuate more so don't rely on that as a sole guide.
But you will get a better feel for what looks, smells and tastes like a healthy ferment as you gain experience and make more beer so let your senses guide you.
 
Exploding bottles is a good indication despite what some people believe.

I thought exploding bottles was an indication that fermentation hadn't finished before bottling, but I'm no expert.
 
I thought exploding bottles was an indication that fermentation hadn't finished before bottling, but I'm no expert.

It could be a number of things:
Infection
Fermentation not finished
Too much priming sugar
Too much heat
Faults in Bottles
 
It could be a number of things:
Infection
Fermentation not finished
Too much priming sugar
Too much heat
Faults in Bottles

So you think telling a new brewer that an exploding bottle is a good indication of an infection, when this is probably the least likely of a number reasons, is good advice? I didn't realise the quality of advice on this forum had sunk so low.
 
I thought exploding bottles was an indication that fermentation hadn't finished before bottling, but I'm no expert.

That's quite right.
However the reason why fermentation hasn't finished is the issue being addressed in this thread and one of those reasons is infected wort and in particular a Lacto infection that will continue to chew through the more complex sugars that brewers yeast struggles with, it's understood that exploding bottles can be the result of a wort that is not completely fermented but it is also and usually more commonly the result of an infection, after all most of us use a hydrometer and are aware that if the FG is higher than anticipated there is a chance of bottle bombs and so we take steps to attenuate the wort as much as possible.
 
So you think telling a new brewer that an exploding bottle is a good indication of an infection, when this is probably the least likely of a number reasons, is good advice? I didn't realise the quality of advice on this forum had sunk so low.

I would tell them it is a possibility if the other causes are ruled out or dont seem likely.
I definately wouldn't tell new brewers to not worry about cleaning/sanitising bottles however.
 
When I used to bottle into clear PET (2L Coke) I could get away with keeping them meticulously clean, and only a hot tap water rinse before bottling - but I wouldn't try it with glass.

The other thing about clear PET is you can see how clean the bottle is.

In 20 years I could count the gushers on two hands. I deemed it an ok tradeoff.

I starsan the crap out of napisaned kegs though - losing 2L every year or two to a bottle infection is one thing - losing a whole keg is a whole nother. I haven't and don't think I ever will - for me, CLEAN is 90% of your sanitisation regime; and you can get away with not using a sanitizer if it's insanely clean, but no amount of sanitising a dirty vessle will save ya.

If you are starting out brewing - develop OCD.
 
Cleaned up the thread a little as it seemed to be straying
 
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