Do You Stress Over Infection?

[felten]

I started this argument a few months ago, upset a few people. The thing with bottles is to clean them as soon as you empty them to drink, then when you come to bottling them you just need to rinse. Plenty of people do this no trouble, plenty of others think its crazy. With fermenters, its so easy to use a bit of sanitiser you would be silly not to. Beer gets boiled so if you pitch yeast as soon as its cool the chances of an infection are remote. Winegrapes are never even cleaned, let alone sanitised, and problems are pretty rare. If you saw the stuff that goes into the grape crusher sometimes you would be amazed - caterpillars, spiders, bees, leaves, even lizards, not to mention the inevitable birdshit. It makes people's obsessions with sanitising look a bit silly.

Unlike beer though, wine usually has sod met added to it right? that would neutralize a lot of spoilage organisms. The alcohol is usually higher and pH lower in wine as well AFAIK. And beer usually has some residual sugars and dextrins left behind after fermentation.

 

[Greg.L]

Unlike beer though, wine usually has sod met added to it right? that would neutralize a lot of spoilage organisms. The alcohol is usually higher and pH lower in wine as well AFAIK. And beer usually has some residual sugars and dextrins left behind after fermentation.

Those are all good points. On metabisulphite, though, even though adding it to juice does help suppress a lot of spoilage organisms, it is soon bound during fermentation and stops having much effect. Some people make wine without any, and remember wine is stored a lot longer than beer, and often has residual sugar. The fact remains that a good fermentation is protection in itself. I'm not argueing against cleaning and sanitising equipment, just trying to put things in perspective.

 

[DUANNE]

The vast majority of sanitising is cleaning. You get something scrupulously clean, and its already 99% of the way to being sanitary. Just ask all the people out there who "sanitise" with percarbonate.. which is a cleaner.

Infections are way more likely to be caused by poor cleaning than poor sanitising - for starters, its basically impossible to sanitise something that's not clean, so if you clean poorly - you cant sanitise.

Think of it as varnish - the coffee table you just made in woodwork is smooth and silky because you spent hours and hours sanding it, then you whack a coat of varnish on it to make it shine as well. The varnish wouldn't make a rough sawn lump of wood look good, and without the varnish you'll always know that it could have been just a little better. Cleaning is the sandpaper and varnish is the sanitiser.

You clean really really well, and most times you'll get away without sanitising - I don't know about you... but the 6 hours I spent brewing the other day is too much of my life to waste on "most times" so I spend another 30seconds sanitising and jack up the odds to "pretty much every time".

as much as in hate to do it.

+1

 

[raven19]

I stress for sure! But now I pitch big healthy yeast starters, and touch wood have not had an issue since.

Some great points in the posts above too.

 

[QldKev]

a big thing for me has that on bottling day i used to spray my bottles with sanitiser let them dry and then rins them again with fresh water (an experienced brewer taught me this method) and it made bottling a 1 or 2 hour ordeal which i would dread. now i just rinse my bottles with hot water and dont bother to drain. the whole thing is a painless 20 minute process and it means i enjoy it more. also i figure an infection would only affect one bottle rather than the whole batch: another thing is 'no chilling' in the pot overnight rather than in a cube. (i dont want to spend the 20 bucks at the moment)

of course whatever routine works for you is the best i guess but i can say that for me all the advice to worry about infections took a lotvof the fun out of brewing for me and im just now starting to enjoy myself now that im taking some more shortcuts.

Don't waste our time then!, go and brew your Wollies Lager at 26 and don't complain when it taste like shit
and when that 1 infected bottle blows up and hurts someone you love don't complain on here

Harsh but true

I brew good beer cause I love to do it, if you don't want to spend the time don't bother

 

[Greg.L]

Don't waste our time then!, go and brew your Wollies Lager at 26 and don't complain when it taste like shit
and when that 1 infected bottle blows up and hurts someone you love don't complain on here

Harsh but true

I brew good beer cause I love to do it, if you don't want to spend the time don't bother

An infection from a dirty bottle won't cause a bottle bomb, that would be due to too much unfermented sugar.

Where did you get that idea?

 

[Yob]

a dead easy and solid NO for me and my part..

I dont worry because I seem to spend endless hours in cleaning and prep work.. this also lets me feel comfortable, OCD has flashed through my mind at times with regard to this subject.. every part of every process has a clean and sanitation point prior to contact.. yeah it might cost me a bit of extra time.. but I get a warm fuzzy feeling from knowing that ive done all I can to protect my beer :icon_drunk:

I guess at the end of the day I have been known to take shortcuts here and there and making beer at times can both be rewarding and punnishing to people who do, Ive been fortunate to have only have had 1 'suspected' infection with an imperfect sanitation programe (at the time), Ive known of other people who are meticulous in their prep and have lost many in a row and had to replace every item in their brewery to eliminate the problem.. must dig up that thread... long and skinny in my belief is that it is better to have the upper hand and prevent the problem than to have to eliminate it once established... and at some considerable cost in some cases..

Yob

I agree though cleaning for hours does suck

 

[pk.sax]

so far, I've not managed to take the brewing out of the kitchen....

Just as a bonus, every time I brew, I do two things:

1) spill some - not on purpose... (it takes days for it to stop being completely non-sticky)

2) Clean the damn kitchen from end to end. And I mean really clean. Once its clean, sanitising in a clean room is a breeze. The sink always works better after I brew too because of all the oxidising stuff that goes down it.

I'm one for making things simpler, but not if I don't understand how it works.

 

[Ironsides]

Those are all good points. On metabisulphite, though, even though adding it to juice does help suppress a lot of spoilage organisms, it is soon bound during fermentation and stops having much effect. Some people make wine without any, and remember wine is stored a lot longer than beer, and often has residual sugar. The fact remains that a good fermentation is protection in itself. I'm not argueing against cleaning and sanitising equipment, just trying to put things in perspective.

I've seen one small winery ferment wine in the grape bin, in the drive way of the winery, in the sun, because they ran out of tank space during vintage.

 

[Brewman_]

I don't stress.

I have had some problems in the past and I am very maticulous now.

I have been helping a new brewer lately and the thing that has really surpised me, is their the horror of me using water to to a full volume soak of filthy brew gear. I would always rather tip out 50 litres of water than 50 litres of infected beer and then have to clean up the mess.

Fear_n_Loath

 

[Thirsty Boy]

An infection from a dirty bottle won't cause a bottle bomb, that would be due to too much unfermented sugar.

Where did you get that idea?

He probably got it from the fact that its true. Lots of beer spoilage organisms cause superattenuation and given the right (wrong really i guess) circumstances, that could easily cause a beer to become so carbonated that a bottle could explode.

 

[Greg.L]

He probably got it from the fact that its true. Lots of beer spoilage organisms cause superattenuation and given the right (wrong really i guess) circumstances, that could easily cause a beer to become so carbonated that a bottle could explode.

That's interesting if it's true. Which organisms are these "lots", yeasts or bacteria? How common are they? Presumably they could get in the primary fermentation as well as dirty bottles. I have done hundreds of brews and never seen anything like that. If it happens so easily you would think it was more common.

 

[hirns]

That's interesting if it's true. Which organisms are these "lots", yeasts or bacteria? How common are they? Presumably they could get in the primary fermentation as well as dirty bottles. I have done hundreds of brews and never seen anything like that. If it happens so easily you would think it was more common.

I think that the most common example for homebrewers would be the "Gusher". These beers often taste alright but are infected none the less. As Thirsty said the secondary ferment in the bottle has gotten out of control due to rogue bacteria in the bottle (or has been introduced). This is very different to over carbonation from over priming or bottling berfore fermentation is complete.


Hirns

 

[Murcluf]

I don't stress as I view sanitisation in the same way as contraception, if you don't want any unplanned results from your labour, you make sure you take proper precautions prior you doing the deed. That way you shouldn't have the risk of any nasty surprises.
Plus the whole sanitisation process can be easily slotted into the brew day without issue as there is plenty of time in between processes like mashing and hop additions etc.

 

[pimpsqueak]

That's interesting if it's true. Which organisms are these "lots", yeasts or bacteria? How common are they? Presumably they could get in the primary fermentation as well as dirty bottles. I have done hundreds of brews and never seen anything like that. If it happens so easily you would think it was more common.

I had a 4 pack of Murrays Nirvana a week ago that all gushed. I wonder if, given time they would have exploded too.
Nothing to do with overpriming and everything to do with extremely poor handling and storage. It didn't taste infected, just super-carbonated and nearly tasteless.

On a bright note, their head brewer is sending me out some replacement beer.

In summary, it would certainly appear that over-priming is not the only cause of bottle bombs.

 

[Greg.L]

I had a 4 pack of Murrays Nirvana a week ago that all gushed. I wonder if, given time they would have exploded too.
Nothing to do with overpriming and everything to do with extremely poor handling and storage. It didn't taste infected, just super-carbonated and nearly tasteless.

On a bright note, their head brewer is sending me out some replacement beer.

In summary, it would certainly appear that over-priming is not the only cause of bottle bombs.

I don't think gushing and bottle bombs are the same issue. My beer will sometimes gush if I open the bottle warm. I have seen commercial beer gushers that were well cooled, so some sort of infection is indicated. I don't think a gusher is caused by excessive pressure, though I'm sure to get disagreement on this, I have seen lightly carbed bottles that have gushed. I think it is caused by yeast deposits in the bottle giving nucleation points, the longer a bottle has aged the less likely it is to gush.

 

[pimpsqueak]

I think it is caused by yeast deposits in the bottle giving nucleation points, the longer a bottle has aged the less likely it is to gush.

Weird, because the 4 bottles were so old that Murrays are now using different hops in their Nirvana to the ones on the label.

 

[Greg.L]

Weird, because the 4 bottles were so old that Murrays are now using different hops in their Nirvana to the ones on the label.

Not all gushers are the same, I have seen coopers gushers a whole slab that couldn't be poured at all. None of them exploded, but obviously some problem with production/infection. I didn't mean all gushers will improve with age, just the homebrew sort caused by early bottling and a heavy yeast deposit.

 

[QldKev]

I don't think gushing and bottle bombs are the same issue. My beer will sometimes gush if I open the bottle warm. I have seen commercial beer gushers that were well cooled, so some sort of infection is indicated. I don't think a gusher is caused by excessive pressure, though I'm sure to get disagreement on this, I have seen lightly carbed bottles that have gushed. I think it is caused by yeast deposits in the bottle giving nucleation points, the longer a bottle has aged the less likely it is to gush.

My understanding

Bottle bombs are too much pressure in the bottle at the time; generally too much priming sugar, or under attenuated beer, or an infection that is happy munching on the longer sugar chains.

Gushers can be caused from either too much pressure, as per bottle bombs, or from CO2 coming out of solution rapidly; caused by excessive nucleation points from either yeast or poor bottle constuction, or the beer being warm.

So a gusher or a bottle bomb may be caused from an infection.

QldKev

 

[argon]

An infection from a dirty bottle won't cause a bottle bomb, that would be due to too much unfermented sugar.

Where did you get that idea?

A dirty bottle may certainly cause a bottle bomb. Particularly if the 'dirt' that's in the bottle has some form of contaminant that is able to consume complex carbohydrates and produce gas. Therefore increasing pressure in the vessel until failure = bottle bomb.

That's interesting if it's true. Which organisms are these "lots", yeasts or bacteria? How common are they? Presumably they could get in the primary fermentation as well as dirty bottles. I have done hundreds of brews and never seen anything like that. If it happens so easily you would think it was more common.

Wild yeast and bacteria is just about on everything in the environment, on plants, soil, animals, insects and just floating about in the air. One example of such a contaminant is Brettanomyces which will chew through more sugars than regular brewers yeast and may lead to bottle bombs if not properly handled.

Just about all beer is infected to some level, certainly all homebrew. It's just that the goal is to introduce brewers yeast as the most dominant organic life-form within the wort/beer. for example, it's not quite true when one states they've never had an infection... it's just that they've never experienced the effects of a significant infection.

I don't think gushing and bottle bombs are the same issue. My beer will sometimes gush if I open the bottle warm. I have seen commercial beer gushers that were well cooled, so some sort of infection is indicated. I don't think a gusher is caused by excessive pressure, though I'm sure to get disagreement on this, I have seen lightly carbed bottles that have gushed. I think it is caused by yeast deposits in the bottle giving nucleation points, the longer a bottle has aged the less likely it is to gush.

Gushing may be caused by overcarbonation (the same thing that may cause bottle bombs)... it's just the gas trying to escape from solution. The more gas in solution, the more 'gush' effect you'll get when you open the bottle and the liquid and the environment attempt to equalize.

Not all gushers are the same, I have seen coopers gushers a whole slab that couldn't be poured at all. None of them exploded, but obviously some problem with production/infection. I didn't mean all gushers will improve with age, just the homebrew sort caused by early bottling and a heavy yeast deposit.

This is true... gushers aren't always a sign of infection... poor handling may also be a factor.