Dispensing From Cubes
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Wortgames
'Draught' is not a beer style - it's a lifestyle
OK, I think we may be onto something guys.
First, get yourself a standard car tyre valve - $2.99 for two from Autobarn. Then drill a 14mm hole in your cube lid. The packet says 11.5mm hole but they are dreaming.
Next drill a 3mm hole in the valve stem, just up from where it flares at the base, but not too far up - otherwise you'll hit the bottom of the valve inside. Make sure you drill through the brass inner as well so that you have a clear hole all the way through to the centre. Then pull the valve through the hole in the lid:
Next get a few inches of rubber gas tubing, like the stuff you had on your bunsen burners at school. It's about 7mm ID. I got mine from Gameco in Preston, but you should be able to find it (or something similar) elsewhere. You might be able to find something in an auto parts supplier. It just needs to be about the right size and have good stretchiness, there is room for fine adjustment later. Then cut yourself a small piece about 15mm long, and slide it over the valve stem (a spot of dish liquid will help). It should be a nice tight fit. Find a washer and a nut to fit the thread, to keep the rubber tubing in place. I'm not exactly sure where my nut came from originally but there's a good chance it is from a bicycle tube, so if you are having trouble finding one try your nearest cycle repairer.
...and basically you are all set.
You will need to tweak it to get the backpressure just right - adjustments are made by changing the length of the tubing slightly. A longer length will be tighter and hold more pressure, and a shorter length will be a bit looser obviously. You might even be able to use a diagonal cut on the bottom end of the tubing to get some kind of adjustment from simply rotating it - but you'll only be able to do this while the dish liquid is relatively fresh, after a few minutes all that tight rubber gets pretty grippy.
From my experiments, I reckon about 3-6psi results in a firm cube with gentle bulging of the flat sides but no serious distortion. It should still sit flat on a surface. Any more than about 10psi will begin to seriously distort the cube, which agrees with what Shunty found - but the objective here is only to maintain a small amount of positive pressure to keep a base level of condition in the beer.
Using one of these it should be easy to naturally prime in the cube, with any excess pressure buildup venting safely. Then you just need to use a bike tyre inflator to give it an occasional squirt of CO2 to maintain positive pressure as you empty the cube (or if you're feeling really minimalist, you could try just adding a bit more sugar from time to time). You'll probably learn to feel what the pressure is like with a gentle squeeze, but this release mechanism (or 'spunding valve') means you shouldn't get into too much trouble.
I have tested it under water to see if there are any leaks, and after a bit of trial and error getting the backpressure right it seems to work perfectly. You need to make sure that your lid and tap is tight, and you might need to file down any moulding burrs to help them seal properly. You might also need to add an extra rubber washer to your tap, so you can keep it tight and vertical at the same time.
I tried a couple of different types of taps, and both the common white tap (with the 'B' shaped handle) and the black one (with the teardop-shaped handle) seem to handle the pressure just fine. I have also tried a yellow spring-top tap but it has a tendency to drip very slowly - not sure whether this would be universal or just mine (edit: randyrob seems to have the same type of tap in red and it looks lke it's OK).
Haven't served a brew through it yet, as I haven't got a bike inflater (I was using compressed air) but hopefully sometime in the next couple of weeks I'll be able to give it a trial run with real beer.
So we could be talking about a kegging (casking? cubing?) system for the cost of a cube, a gas dispenser, some parts and maybe an hour of farting around. By my reckoning it should be good for up to about 2 volumes of carbonation, but in reality it would probably be nearer 1.5 given that you wouldn't want to keep it permanently at its maximum pressure. I think that's still perfectly drinkable for day-to-day drinking (unless you like really fizzy lagers), and for the price I reckon it has to be worth a shot.
Beats bottling :beer:
First, get yourself a standard car tyre valve - $2.99 for two from Autobarn. Then drill a 14mm hole in your cube lid. The packet says 11.5mm hole but they are dreaming.
Next drill a 3mm hole in the valve stem, just up from where it flares at the base, but not too far up - otherwise you'll hit the bottom of the valve inside. Make sure you drill through the brass inner as well so that you have a clear hole all the way through to the centre. Then pull the valve through the hole in the lid:
Next get a few inches of rubber gas tubing, like the stuff you had on your bunsen burners at school. It's about 7mm ID. I got mine from Gameco in Preston, but you should be able to find it (or something similar) elsewhere. You might be able to find something in an auto parts supplier. It just needs to be about the right size and have good stretchiness, there is room for fine adjustment later. Then cut yourself a small piece about 15mm long, and slide it over the valve stem (a spot of dish liquid will help). It should be a nice tight fit. Find a washer and a nut to fit the thread, to keep the rubber tubing in place. I'm not exactly sure where my nut came from originally but there's a good chance it is from a bicycle tube, so if you are having trouble finding one try your nearest cycle repairer.
...and basically you are all set.
You will need to tweak it to get the backpressure just right - adjustments are made by changing the length of the tubing slightly. A longer length will be tighter and hold more pressure, and a shorter length will be a bit looser obviously. You might even be able to use a diagonal cut on the bottom end of the tubing to get some kind of adjustment from simply rotating it - but you'll only be able to do this while the dish liquid is relatively fresh, after a few minutes all that tight rubber gets pretty grippy.
From my experiments, I reckon about 3-6psi results in a firm cube with gentle bulging of the flat sides but no serious distortion. It should still sit flat on a surface. Any more than about 10psi will begin to seriously distort the cube, which agrees with what Shunty found - but the objective here is only to maintain a small amount of positive pressure to keep a base level of condition in the beer.
Using one of these it should be easy to naturally prime in the cube, with any excess pressure buildup venting safely. Then you just need to use a bike tyre inflator to give it an occasional squirt of CO2 to maintain positive pressure as you empty the cube (or if you're feeling really minimalist, you could try just adding a bit more sugar from time to time). You'll probably learn to feel what the pressure is like with a gentle squeeze, but this release mechanism (or 'spunding valve') means you shouldn't get into too much trouble.
I have tested it under water to see if there are any leaks, and after a bit of trial and error getting the backpressure right it seems to work perfectly. You need to make sure that your lid and tap is tight, and you might need to file down any moulding burrs to help them seal properly. You might also need to add an extra rubber washer to your tap, so you can keep it tight and vertical at the same time.
I tried a couple of different types of taps, and both the common white tap (with the 'B' shaped handle) and the black one (with the teardop-shaped handle) seem to handle the pressure just fine. I have also tried a yellow spring-top tap but it has a tendency to drip very slowly - not sure whether this would be universal or just mine (edit: randyrob seems to have the same type of tap in red and it looks lke it's OK).
Haven't served a brew through it yet, as I haven't got a bike inflater (I was using compressed air) but hopefully sometime in the next couple of weeks I'll be able to give it a trial run with real beer.
So we could be talking about a kegging (casking? cubing?) system for the cost of a cube, a gas dispenser, some parts and maybe an hour of farting around. By my reckoning it should be good for up to about 2 volumes of carbonation, but in reality it would probably be nearer 1.5 given that you wouldn't want to keep it permanently at its maximum pressure. I think that's still perfectly drinkable for day-to-day drinking (unless you like really fizzy lagers), and for the price I reckon it has to be worth a shot.
Beats bottling :beer:
Airgead
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Dude, that is a thing of beauty.
I'm brewing up some authentic 15/1600's gruit ales for my historical fencing club's next prize fight. I've been trying to work out how to do authentic cask dispensing without having to get an authentic cask. This looks like it will do the trick perfectly. A bit of priming sugar to get 1-1.5 volumes and serve straight from the cube. No risk of overpressure which is what I was worried about (don't want a split cube and spilt beer). In my case I can just crack the lid open a bit when gravity dispensing. Using air to fill the headspace is a ) authentic and b ) not an issue as the whole thing will be gone in an hour or 2.
Great stuff.
Cheers
Dave
Edit - Actually its even better than I first thought as with that pressure relief valve in the lid I should be able to ferment in the cube as well. The valve should bleed off any pressure above 1 1/2 volumes and will leave the beer carbonated to that level at the end of fermentation with no need for a separate priming step. Very 1500s ;-)
Stuster
Big mash up
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Wow! Great work, Wortgames :super:
Nice clear write up for the tool-phobic like me. Will be trying this soon. :chug:
One question to save me doing anything to set this up.
Where would be the best place to get a CO2 inflator? Bike shop? Evilbay?
Nice clear write up for the tool-phobic like me. Will be trying this soon. :chug:
One question to save me doing anything to set this up.
Where would be the best place to get a CO2 inflator? Bike shop? Evilbay?
Wortgames
'Draught' is not a beer style - it's a lifestyle
Thanks guys.
You can find the inflaters on eBay or in bike shops. Some of the US (and probably Aussie) homebrew shops are selling them as 'keg chargers' with corny QD's attached, not sure if these are interchangeable with the tyre valve or whether it is a 'factory mod'.
I have seen a heap of different models out there, and they seem to vary from about $25 up to about $50 (probably more if you want the Italian carbon/graphite/lycra model with built in leg shaver).
It would be good to hear from any folks that have them already, apparently some models are great at holding unused gas for weeks and others tend to leak out an entire cylinder pretty quickly. In truth it probably wouldn't matter that much, I think the Brits usually just unload an entire CO2 bulb every time they charge their pressure barrels, but if you are spendng the money anyway it would be nice to know that you can dispense the gas as required.
You can find the inflaters on eBay or in bike shops. Some of the US (and probably Aussie) homebrew shops are selling them as 'keg chargers' with corny QD's attached, not sure if these are interchangeable with the tyre valve or whether it is a 'factory mod'.
I have seen a heap of different models out there, and they seem to vary from about $25 up to about $50 (probably more if you want the Italian carbon/graphite/lycra model with built in leg shaver).
It would be good to hear from any folks that have them already, apparently some models are great at holding unused gas for weeks and others tend to leak out an entire cylinder pretty quickly. In truth it probably wouldn't matter that much, I think the Brits usually just unload an entire CO2 bulb every time they charge their pressure barrels, but if you are spendng the money anyway it would be nice to know that you can dispense the gas as required.
geoffi
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Wow. Great post, Wortgames. I'm not exactly a handy-bloke, but even I could follow that procedure. Got a few big bbqs coming up and this might just be the ticket for dispensing some realish ale to the thirsty throng. Definitely going to investigate this one. I notice there are plenty of those C02 inflators on eBay, plus cheap gas bulbs.
I have a few different types of cube. I think the squat 15L is the way to go. The taller ones that St Peters use seem much thinner-walled.
Something that might be handy is one of those plastic spanners they use for tightening cube lids, to make sure it's really on firmly.
I have a few different types of cube. I think the squat 15L is the way to go. The taller ones that St Peters use seem much thinner-walled.
Something that might be handy is one of those plastic spanners they use for tightening cube lids, to make sure it's really on firmly.
Wortgames
'Draught' is not a beer style - it's a lifestyle
It opens up a whole lot of possibilities doesn't it? It's basically a 'beer machine' if you want it to be, just dump in your kit, water and yeast, and start serving draught ale the following week :beer:
I guess it would take a bit of experimentation with fermentation / carbonation / serving temperatures, but I don't see why it wouldn't work. It wouldn't be on the slurry long enough to suffer from autolysis, and if you used a nice clumpy yeast that stuck to the bottom of the cube you'd probably get reasonably clear beer out of the thing.
One thing that might be a factor though is that presumably, elevated CO2 levels are as unpleasant to yeast as elevated alcohol levels, in that they are both waste products. This might have some affect on the fermentation, and some yeasts might respond better than others.
delboy
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nice one neil :super:
looks as if post 27 helped there as thats all i do . and they work a treat and i have also found that the small 15 ltr fermenters are thicker than the 30 ltr ones andhold the pressure better if you want to go a bit harder. :beer:
by the way if any one is inrterested you can realy do a nice mod job on a picadilly water p.e.t bottle as well there great for low pressure cask ales and tuff as nuts use the same snap on lid with 2 holes in it 1 for a vent and gas up valve and the other with a treaded dip tube and a tyre valve cap on it and grommet. refridgerate ya swill and then use an engine to pump it out or a picnic fauset .and they hold 15 ltrs?
del
looks as if post 27 helped there as thats all i do . and they work a treat and i have also found that the small 15 ltr fermenters are thicker than the 30 ltr ones andhold the pressure better if you want to go a bit harder. :beer:
by the way if any one is inrterested you can realy do a nice mod job on a picadilly water p.e.t bottle as well there great for low pressure cask ales and tuff as nuts use the same snap on lid with 2 holes in it 1 for a vent and gas up valve and the other with a treaded dip tube and a tyre valve cap on it and grommet. refridgerate ya swill and then use an engine to pump it out or a picnic fauset .and they hold 15 ltrs?
del
Airgead
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I have heard that elevated co2 can be a problem with fermentation but if I do what they did with the old kegs - leave the bung out till fermentation was nearly done then bung it up to carbonate during the last few days of fermentation... If I get a rubber cork the same size as the hole for the pressure relief valve I can use an airlock till its almost finished then screw in the pressure valve and let it carbonate up. The valve means I don't need to be as clever as the old brewers as I don't need to judge the timing so accurately. there is no risk of over carbonation.
I don't even care much about clarity. The guys want an authentic 1599 experience (the date the manual describing the sword fighting style we study was published) and I'm sure beers weren't particularly clear back in those days. I'll also be serving at 12-14 degrees as they hadn't invented the fridge back then. Just like iin old times it will come out of the cellar and sit on the bench warming up to room temp till its finished.
Mind you if I was doing it for myself I'd let it settle cold for a few weeks. The tap on a cube us usually an inch or so off the bottom so that should leave it high enough to avoid most of the sludge. Interesting for a picnic or BBQ... you could probably rig something up with a small cube, large esky and a length of tubing to a picnic tap that would work quite well and keep the beer cold as well.
Cheers
Dave
delboy
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yes dave
its good to see ya olde brewer at heart it sound as if you have read so camra articals as well .
when i went to the bedford beer festival in the UK a few years back we were served an ale that was made the old way over a fire place and that before all the modern stuff was available the recipe was a medievil ale which i guess would have been megaswill in them days it was cloudy ,12 deg c and was full of flavours that one cant describe .it was loked after buy the cellarman and was served from the cask via a wooden tap in tankerds
at 3 pound a pint it was certified by camra and was real ale in it truest form i was very nice as well ! ye olde knights would have been pleased with ye ale reborn .
del
its good to see ya olde brewer at heart it sound as if you have read so camra articals as well .
when i went to the bedford beer festival in the UK a few years back we were served an ale that was made the old way over a fire place and that before all the modern stuff was available the recipe was a medievil ale which i guess would have been megaswill in them days it was cloudy ,12 deg c and was full of flavours that one cant describe .it was loked after buy the cellarman and was served from the cask via a wooden tap in tankerds
at 3 pound a pint it was certified by camra and was real ale in it truest form i was very nice as well ! ye olde knights would have been pleased with ye ale reborn .
del
Wortgames
'Draught' is not a beer style - it's a lifestyle
Yep cheers delboy, it has been a group effort :beer:
You really wouldn't want to remove the actual valve once you've got it set up right. Getting the pressure release to operate just the way you want takes a bit of fiddling, and once you've got it right you'd probably want to leave it well alone.
You'd be better off just getting a spare cap, and putting an airlock and grommet into it. That's actually what I use for primary fermentation anyway. A lot of 'plastics and storage' type places sell the caps by themselves, they are only a couple of bucks from memory.
delboy
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just in i just rang the local physio here and he sells silicon rubber tubing used for exercising and stretching for rehab and it has a nice ID as well as being soft enough to use as a relief valve rubber???
might be an alternative there neil????
delboy
might be an alternative there neil????
delboy
geoffi
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Here's an interesting thing.
I've just found that an airlock grommet fits very snugly onto one of these valves. It would nicely cover the little hole in the shaft. Whether it would hold in the pressure enough to be effective...I'll see tomorrow by pumping some air into it.
I've just found that an airlock grommet fits very snugly onto one of these valves. It would nicely cover the little hole in the shaft. Whether it would hold in the pressure enough to be effective...I'll see tomorrow by pumping some air into it.
geoffi
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Just took a look at Graham Sanders' article about converting plastic spray containers into mini kegs. Similar principle. He states, though, that you need to use crome-plated or stainless steel valves. I can't work out why that should be. Any thoughts?
randyrob
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Hey Guys,
Pat on the Back Wortgames, A very nice Guide.
so far i've been shopping picked up:
2 x Car Valves, Washes and Nuts $5.00 from the local Tyre Shop.
1 x 25 Litre Cube from a local mechanic $free (it was used for distilled water?)
1 x Tap $5.00 (the pull type as compared to the twist type used in fermenters)
i haven't had any luck so far finding a suitable tubing yet :angry:
TOTAL=$10.00
I will be doing an AG English Pale Ale tomorrow morning (Saturday) using
nottingham yeast for a quick ferment and then Naturally Carbonating in the "Real Ale Cube"
next weekend :super:
What is the go since i picked up a 25 Litre cube how much head space should i leave when i fill
it up for secondary? i was thinking make a 23 Litre batch and leave 2 litres of head space just like
filling a giant bottle?
also anyone got any idea on priming rates?
Many Thanks Rob.
Pat on the Back Wortgames, A very nice Guide.
so far i've been shopping picked up:
2 x Car Valves, Washes and Nuts $5.00 from the local Tyre Shop.
1 x 25 Litre Cube from a local mechanic $free (it was used for distilled water?)
1 x Tap $5.00 (the pull type as compared to the twist type used in fermenters)
i haven't had any luck so far finding a suitable tubing yet :angry:
TOTAL=$10.00
I will be doing an AG English Pale Ale tomorrow morning (Saturday) using
nottingham yeast for a quick ferment and then Naturally Carbonating in the "Real Ale Cube"
next weekend :super:
What is the go since i picked up a 25 Litre cube how much head space should i leave when i fill
it up for secondary? i was thinking make a 23 Litre batch and leave 2 litres of head space just like
filling a giant bottle?
also anyone got any idea on priming rates?
Many Thanks Rob.
Weizguy
Barley Bomber
Has anyone considered using a cut-down bottling stem and/or valve, modified with a sparkler head for that creamy finish to the beer?
Just a thought from Seth Enterprises.
Seth (CEO) out
Just a thought from Seth Enterprises.
Seth (CEO) out
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