Diacetyl Rest Question

[warrenlw63]

Ross,

I do a similar thing to Asher. Primary ferment, rack to a keg and lager for a month. Then I put the gas on when I'm contemplating consumption.

The kegs I use have about 20mm cut off the bottom of the dip tube to leave the lees behind. I brew 40 litre batches (2 kegs).

What I do after lagering is just gas and drink the first keg. The 2nd keg gets a longer lagering period which makes me concerned about the lees on the bottom of the keg. So I just rack from one keg to a new one with a jumper hose. (two beer disconnects on about 60cm of beer hose).

I just push from one keg to another with the gas, I watch the hose until the keg starts to look like it's going to kick. I then just quickly pull the disconnect from the receiving keg.

You filter your beer Ross so you'd most likely be pretty well-versed with these methods anyway.

Warren -

 

[Ross]

Thanks for all the advice guys - got it all worked out for kegging now.

Just one quick question on the bottling side - When do you bottle? Do you prime just after the diacetyl rest or bring up to temp after a month of lagering? or otherwise...

 

[Dunkel_Boy]

Prime after your lagering... another point that yeast should still be working for lagering.
Lagers are ideally kegged though, because there won't be that much yeast after 4-8 weeks of lagering.

 

[Ross]

DB, I guessed if you primed/bottled after the rest & then lagered - it would be pretty similar to racking to your keg & lagering??
Just wanting to do a few comp bottles...

 

[Dunkel_Boy]

I guess so, but I would imagine your carbonation levels would be inconsistent. You can bottle/prime/carbonate for a week or so, then lager, but then again you won't get the same effect as lagering the entire batch... because you've got 40 bottles instead of one big bottle.
If you must bottle prime, this is probably the way to go.

 

[warrenlw63]

I'd prime, bottle, keep them warm for a week or so to carbonate.

Then if you've got room in your fridge lager the bottles this way. There'd have to be concerns about the amount of viable yeast available after 4+ weeks of cold conditioning. If there's yeast to carbonate the bottles this would have to aid some way in the lagering process.

As DB stated though. Lends itself more to kegging.

Ross if you've got a CP filler you can fill from the keg. Having a filter, filtered beer would be a pretty awesome presentation for a comp too. Less worries about how the stewards handle your bottles as well.

Warren -

 

[Dunkel_Boy]

Warren,
That's right, and you would think that 8 months of lagering there would be nothing left. Strangely, the last two lagers I did, a helles and a pils, were both bottle primed and had both been lagering for 6-8 weeks. Carbonation was perfect on both.

 

[warrenlw63]

Yep, wouldn't doubt that DB. I'd just be stressing a bit if the bottles decided not to.

Warren

 

[Snow]

Thanks for all the advice guys - got it all worked out for kegging now.

Just one quick question on the bottling side - When do you bottle? Do you prime just after the diacetyl rest or bring up to temp after a month of lagering? or otherwise...

[post="52548"][/post]​

Ross,

my experience is that you get better lagering effects if you lager the secondary before you bottle. I did an Oktoberfest last year and did an experiment where I bottled and primed some beer straight after racking to secondary and let that carbonate at room temp before lagering for 2 months in the bottle. The rest of it, I lagered in secondary at 3c for 2 months before bulk priming a bottling. After they had carbonated, I then put 2 of those bottles into the fridge for another 2 months, so they effectively got 4 months of lagering. Well, bottom line is there wasn't that much difference, although the bottled beer that was left at room temp tasted slightly more complex after 4 months, than the extra lagered bottles.

Cheers - Snow

 

[Dunkel_Boy]

Ha ha, exactly right. My ideal setup would be a few kegs and 12 or so bottles, counter-pressure filled. I'm still not sure on how consistent/easy CPFilling is, but it would be handy... and I'm sure the beer would be very clear/clean.

 

[pint of lager]

sluggerdog Today, 07:55 AM

My current brew seems to have had a little problem, it seems to be stuck, OG was 1048 and todays gravity is 1028 after 14 days at 10C (Wyeast Pilsen Yeast - 2007)

I have to move on with this brew as I have another ready to go into my fridge so I am planning on resting this for 5 days instead of the 2-3 and hopefully in this time it will lower the gravity enough and finish it off before I CC. Does anyone see anything wrong with this? I am kind f afraid that I will loose my lager chrematistics and/or get some off flavours?

Stuck ferments are the pits. I had a string of lagers that did this a few years ago.

Are you just starting out and using a shiney new refractometer? This will give you readings that appear way too high.

Easiest plan would be to bring it up a few degrees to 12, gently stir to rouse the yeast and see what happens. Maybe your fridge is runnning a bit cooler than you think. Stirring is also good as it releases trapped CO2.

If you think it is a yeast problem, pitch some more yeast, easily done by adding a saflager.

If you think you may have mashed at too high a temp, grab a sachet of dry enzyme from the homebrew shop and add this.

Lagers need extra care. They need twice the pitching rates that ales do as they multiply at half the rate of ale yeasts. And to keep that crisp clean characteristic, they need fermenting at the right temps as jjpalmer has outlined.

After my string of poor lagers, I looked to yeast health, pitching rates and water chemistry again. Not sure what cured my lagers but they have been fine since.

 

[Ross]

Ross if you've got a CP filler you can fill from the keg. Having a filter, filtered beer would be a pretty awesome presentation for a comp too. Less worries about how the stewards handle your bottles as well.

Warren -

[post="52558"][/post]​

I was of exactly the same mind as I hate bottle priming - but after a chat with a Brisbane judge, he advised me against it - saying that when judging, if they got a beer that was excellent, but not bottle conditioned, they couldn't help but have doubt over its authenticity & would more than likely give a close decision to the bottle conditioned one!!!

Probably should have posted this to a new thread as I'm sure it will evoke some response from judges here??

Infact I will repost the question...

 

[sluggerdog]

sluggerdog Today, 07:55 AM

My current brew seems to have had a little problem, it seems to be stuck, OG was 1048 and todays gravity is 1028 after 14 days at 10C (Wyeast Pilsen Yeast - 2007)

I have to move on with this brew as I have another ready to go into my fridge so I am planning on resting this for 5 days instead of the 2-3 and hopefully in this time it will lower the gravity enough and finish it off before I CC. Does anyone see anything wrong with this? I am kind f afraid that I will loose my lager chrematistics and/or get some off flavours?

Stuck ferments are the pits. I had a string of lagers that did this a few years ago.

Are you just starting out and using a shiney new refractometer? This will give you readings that appear way too high.

Easiest plan would be to bring it up a few degrees to 12, gently stir to rouse the yeast and see what happens. Maybe your fridge is runnning a bit cooler than you think. Stirring is also good as it releases trapped CO2.

If you think it is a yeast problem, pitch some more yeast, easily done by adding a saflager.

If you think you may have mashed at too high a temp, grab a sachet of dry enzyme from the homebrew shop and add this.

Lagers need extra care. They need twice the pitching rates that ales do as they multiply at half the rate of ale yeasts. And to keep that crisp clean characteristic, they need fermenting at the right temps as jjpalmer has outlined.

After my string of poor lagers, I looked to yeast health, pitching rates and water chemistry again. Not sure what cured my lagers but they have been fine since.

[post="52564"][/post]​

Thanks POL, I'll look into a few different things.

I have it resting now at the lowest temp possible (about 25C) and since I started resting it, I started to get a krasuen again.

Fingers crossed I won't get too many off flavours.

 

[SJW]

I pitch my Lager yeast warm and wait 12 hours or so for some action then bring down to Lager ferment temps, around 9 deg C. It will stay there for 10 to 14 days. That when i pull out for rest for 2 days. I might add that there is always krusen after every Lager i have done even after 14 days, then it normally takes 2 to 3 days to finish and just as the Krusen starts to fall in i rack, and then CC @ 0 or 1 degC. I do not doubt JJPALMER (who would) and am sure that some yeasts dont need or benefit from CC but i CC em all just to be sure. Anyway a couple of weeks CC, if nothing else , helps clear the beer quicker anyway.
That my 3 cents worth.

 

[Dunkel_Boy]

I think the only thing with yeast not producing diacetyl (or not producing very much, to be more correct) is that if you do a diacetyl rest and it's not necessary, you're probably producing fusels by having the yeast up around room temperature... so perhaps it's a bad idea. Taste it before you rack perhaps?
I know my pilsener had very little, but I did a rest for two or three days anyway. It was using WLP802, and unsurprisingly, that is a low diacetyl yeast.

 

[sluggerdog]

I think the only thing with yeast not producing diacetyl (or not producing very much, to be more correct) is that if you do a diacetyl rest and it's not necessary, you're probably producing fusels by having the yeast up around room temperature... so perhaps it's a bad idea. Taste it before you rack perhaps?
I know my pilsener had very little, but I did a rest for two or three days anyway. It was using WLP802, and unsurprisingly, that is a low diacetyl yeast.

[post="52611"][/post]​

The question of which yeasts need the rest and which do not comes to mind.

How do we know?

 

[Ross]

I think the only thing with yeast not producing diacetyl (or not producing very much, to be more correct) is that if you do a diacetyl rest and it's not necessary, you're probably producing fusels by having the yeast up around room temperature... so perhaps it's a bad idea. Taste it before you rack perhaps?
I know my pilsener had very little, but I did a rest for two or three days anyway. It was using WLP802, and unsurprisingly, that is a low diacetyl yeast.

[post="52611"][/post]​

The question of which yeasts need the rest and which do not comes to mind.

How do we know?

[post="52625"][/post]​

slugger,

some of the wyeast descriptions mention it

http://www.wyeastlab.com/beprlist.htm#1098

 

[Jim - Perth]

I am inclined to go with John Palmer on this one.

I am about to embark upon my annnual lagering now that winter approaches but was only contemplating using packet (S -23) yeast since I'm unlikely to brew more than 3 - 4 lagers & or bocks this winter.

It appears to me that the reason for starting at ale temps & then bringing temp. down to lager temps is to make it easier, particularly for the packet (dry) yeast user, since an 11g sachet requires that 2 sachets be used if pitching at lager temps but only 1 sachet being recommended if pitching at ale temps.

The problem therefore being that the yeast are not present in sufficient numbers if only 1 sachet is used (at lager temps) & fermentation takes awhile to get under way & therefore may not get off to a good strong start.

What I propose doing therefore is to use only one sachet of S - 23 but to pitch it with a starter & then, once it has built up some numbers ie. developed a krausen, I will pitch to the wort at around 8 - 12 deg. C. This way I can avoid the risk of catching the fruity ale flavours & maximise the opportunity to cash in on the crisp lager freshness that comes from the low temps but have sufficient yeast numbers to get the brew underway with a minimum of delay.

Any thoughts on my proposed plan of attack?

 

[Dunkel_Boy]

What I propose doing therefore is to use only one sachet of S - 23 but to pitch it with a starter & then, once it has built up some numbers ie. developed a krausen, I will pitch to the wort at around 8 - 12 deg. C. This way I can avoid the risk of catching the fruity ale flavours & maximise the opportunity to cash in on the crisp lager freshness that comes from the low temps but have sufficient yeast numbers to get the brew underway with a minimum of delay.

[post="52628"][/post]​

The cost of a pack of dry yeast is $2-$5, I would just pitch two sachets. Plus, S-23 sucks ass.

Sluggerdog, two ways to find the diacetyl. Either taste when it gets around 1020 (or whatever), and if you are picking up buttery goodness, bump it up to 20C. If not, I wouldn't worry about it.
The other way, the link Ross posted up, and also the information is available on www.whitelabs.com For dry yeasts, I think it's a case of taste it and see.

 

[Jim - Perth]

Unfortunately, there is not much choice when it comes to dry lager yeast.

Cheapest S - 23 in Perth is around $4 - Not a huge issue but for the cost of 2 sachets you may as well buy a liquid & pitch the lot.