Decoction Immune From Tannin Extraction ?

[Smashin]

Thought this topic may provide some interest for some out there as it is somthing that has been in the back of my mind since early in my AG days.

When mashing out and sparging we avoid raisign the temperature too high so as to avoid tannin extraction from th ehusk and hence avoid the astringent flavous and to minimise the tannin side of the chill haze equation. But decoction mashin seams to be immune to this train of thought as we boil the $h!t out of the husks.

The only rationale i can provide is pH based. Towards the end of sparging the pH starts to raise and we cut off the last runnings at 5.8 if not before based on SG. But surly boil ing the crap out of the mash would cause a significant amount of tannin extraction also?? or not.

I'm sure someone could add to this.

As a side note. If the pH alone can eliminate tannin extraction to this extend what flow on implication could this have to BIAB and extraction efficiency. I've always been a 3V gravity brewer but a BIAB'er may wish to experiment with raising the temp to near boiling b4 pulling the grain sack out.

Cheers to all :icon_cheers:

 

[Smashin]

So I tried google and hey presto..
http://www.byo.com/stories/wizard/article/...pools-mr-wizard

The implications of wort separation efficincy still stand for BIAB, or even conventional sparging systems. i.e. mashout to near boiling yey spagre water remaining at 77deg. This could be very useful for wheat beers and assisting with stuck sparge

Cheers

Thought this topic may provide some interest for some out there as it is somthing that has been in the back of my mind since early in my AG days.

When mashing out and sparging we avoid raisign the temperature too high so as to avoid tannin extraction from th ehusk and hence avoid the astringent flavous and to minimise the tannin side of the chill haze equation. But decoction mashin seams to be immune to this train of thought as we boil the $h!t out of the husks.

The only rationale i can provide is pH based. Towards the end of sparging the pH starts to raise and we cut off the last runnings at 5.8 if not before based on SG. But surly boil ing the crap out of the mash would cause a significant amount of tannin extraction also?? or not.

I'm sure someone could add to this.

As a side note. If the pH alone can eliminate tannin extraction to this extend what flow on implication could this have to BIAB and extraction efficiency. I've always been a 3V gravity brewer but a BIAB'er may wish to experiment with raising the temp to near boiling b4 pulling the grain sack out.

Cheers to all :icon_cheers:

 

[katzke]

So I tried google and hey presto..
http://www.byo.com/stories/wizard/article/...pools-mr-wizard

The implications of wort separation efficincy still stand for BIAB, or even conventional sparging systems. i.e. mashout to near boiling yey spagre water remaining at 77deg. This could be very useful for wheat beers and assisting with stuck sparge

Cheers

Don't get stuck sparges with BIAB. Even at 100% wheat malt.

 

[bkmad]

As a side note. If the pH alone can eliminate tannin extraction to this extend what flow on implication could this have to BIAB and extraction efficiency. I've always been a 3V gravity brewer but a BIAB'er may wish to experiment with raising the temp to near boiling b4 pulling the grain sack out.

Thats an interesting thought. I've recently started BIABing and have been finding I keep getting quite low efficiency (55% for the first and 60-65% more recently). I've been thinking that I might get better efficiency if I raised the temp of the wort to essentially achieve a mash out. I'd been thinking of hoisting the bag and then raising the wort temp with my immersion element and then dropping the bag back in, stirring, leaving it for a bit and hoisting it again. Your post has got me thinking I could just take off some of the mash and doing a decoction to raise the temp, saving me from buggering around with lifting the bag more than once. Any thoughts on this idea?

I know I'll probably get told not to worry about efficiency so much, but I've been brewing a few recipes from a book which assumes 75% efficiency, and it would be nice to match this so that I know I'm getting the right balance out of my grain bill.

 

[Adamt]

Decoctions are "immune" because of the lower pH of the thick part of the mash that is taken for the decoction, which keeps tannins insoluble.

 

[felten]

Thats an interesting thought. I've recently started BIABing and have been finding I keep getting quite low efficiency (55% for the first and 60-65% more recently). I've been thinking that I might get better efficiency if I raised the temp of the wort to essentially achieve a mash out. I'd been thinking of hoisting the bag and then raising the wort temp with my immersion element and then dropping the bag back in, stirring, leaving it for a bit and hoisting it again. Your post has got me thinking I could just take off some of the mash and doing a decoction to raise the temp, saving me from buggering around with lifting the bag more than once. Any thoughts on this idea?

I know I'll probably get told not to worry about efficiency so much, but I've been brewing a few recipes from a book which assumes 75% efficiency, and it would be nice to match this so that I know I'm getting the right balance out of my grain bill.

You could try playing around with water chemistry. If your water is soft like Melbourne's it can lack the calcium that help the enzymes to convert sugar; and also to drop the mash pH, which aids the conversion.

 

[mje1980]

Ooooh boy, can't wait to hear the half baked opinions, and misinterpreted scientific facts from all the experts on this one!!. Should've thrown HSA, No chill and FWHing in for good measure, then we'd have the ultimate grey area thread :icon_cheers:

 

[bkmad]

You could try playing around with water chemistry. If your water is soft like Melbourne's it can lack the calcium that help the enzymes to convert sugar; and also to drop the mash pH, which aids the conversion.

Cheers, I'm in Sydney and I'm guessing that the water here is pretty soft. I'll look into the water chemistry. I'm mainly doing English style beers so harder water isn't going to hurt anyway.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Just do the mash out, it's good for efficiency, it is good for ensuring full conversion - I recommend not hoisting the bag - use your immersion element as a mash paddle and constantly stir the mash with it until you get to 76-78C. That should shove an extra five points or so of efficiency onto your brew.

I've written heaps of posts about this in the past - if you don't mash-out a BIAB, you are leaving your final mash temperature a good 10C lower than teh final mash temp reached in a traditionally mashed brew - you cant expect the same sort of results.

 

[mje1980]

if you don't mash-out a BIAB, you are leaving your final mash temperature a good 10C lower than teh final mash temp reached in a traditionally mashed brew - you cant expect the same sort of results.


I have a brewer a few doors down who BIAB's. Not 100% sure but i dont think he does the mash out. Makes bloody great beers and hits gravities etc no worries.

.02c

 

[peas_and_corn]

Just one thing about the OP- he mentions that you 'boil the shit' out of a decoction. Really?? I thought the decoction needed to be bubbling, but decidedly on a very low boil. Unless I'm misinterpreting the post.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

if you don't mash-out a BIAB, you are leaving your final mash temperature a good 10C lower than teh final mash temp reached in a traditionally mashed brew - you cant expect the same sort of results.


I have a brewer a few doors down who BIAB's. Not 100% sure but i dont think he does the mash out. Makes bloody great beers and hits gravities etc no worries.

.02c

Talking about efficiency results, mash out will help them to be as high or higher than a batch sparge (into the kettle). bkmad is getting poor efficiency, he doesn't mash out, I think doing so would help.

Hitting your OG means nothing. Anyone can hit their OG no matter what their efficiency is, as long as they know what it is. You don't have to mash out a BIAB, lots of people don't - but in my opinion it is better brewing practice to do so. It will give you better efficiency, help prevent the (admittedly small) possibility of haze from unconverted starch and will put a little dextrin profile back into your beer, which I think helps with BIAB beers which in the ones I have brewed and those of other BIAB brewers I have tasted, tend towards being a little dry and lacking in body.