Decoction - quick queries

[Ducatiboy stu]

You misunderstood my position Stu. I didn't suggest a 72 rest was necessary for head retention - just that it has a significant effect on it.

Cant be that significant. How many brewers dont do the 72* rest and dont have head retention problems.

 

[manticle]

Never said anything about problems did I?
Goodnight.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Goodnight Maticle. May your head be in a constant state of retention.

 

[GuyQLD]

I do a 72'C rest and do have head retention problems. Maybe there's a pill for that? Your move Stu.

 

[Adr_0]

I do a 72'C rest and do have head retention problems. Maybe there's a pill for that? Your move Stu.

I think by not getting extra head from the 72° rest you just broke the first law of thermodynamics...

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

You misunderstood my position Stu. I didn't suggest a 72 rest was necessary for head retention - just that it has a significant effect on it.

So....what is the effect....and how significant is it...

 

[Adr_0]

Curiously, are you aiming to achieve a certain flavour profile from the decoction or is it more a matter of your system limitations? I was under the impression that decoction adds a character to the beer to suit certain styles. Thus if doing a decoction, why not just target the one step and use the AdRIMS to do the other steps through infusion?
Or if it's to venture new grounds, carry on...

Well, a bit of both.

I originally realised my mash tun is probably too small, so I was going to draw some liquor out (at the sacch stage), boil, and add back in for mash out (mostly for thinning out the mash to improve runoff). I then thought "This is basically a decoction". This would only be for a couple of styles, e.g. lagers and wheats (most ales I would just do a SI + MO).

I have also run into the issue - using just infusions - of running out of volume (and hair) doing an Acid->Protein->Sacch->MO doing a wheat. So I could see myself doing a decoction (e.g. Protein to Sacch) as well as the liquor-only mash out.

And of course there are lagers...

The thing I need to figure out is getting grain back from the kettle into the mash tun. I'm building a 100# screen (316SS) to whirlpool on top of, and a low drain on the kettle. This will be awesome for hops/trub, but not so much for decoctions. I could throw a BIAB bag on top of this (if the screen were only a few mm off the bottom) but then comes temp control putting it back into the mash tun.

The drawing board beckons...

 

[GuyQLD]

I think by not getting extra head from the 72° rest you just broke the first law of thermodynamics...

I know I'm getting OT here but it's starting to annoy me. I've even done 55 -> 67 -> 72 with a mash and I can't work it out.

 

[Adr_0]

I know I'm getting OT here but it's starting to annoy me. I've even done 55 -> 67 -> 72 with a mash and I can't work it out.

Didn't realise you were serious.

Not dropping the wort from a great height into the fermenter are you?

 

[pk.sax]

Guy - kegging? Any lubricants on seals or hardware that could be an issue?

Fermenter - any chance of leaching head killing stuff?

Hot side, any materials that might be leaching a head killer?

Bottling - cleaners/sanitisers?

Glasses - cleaners?

 

[Dunkelbrau]

I, like manticle split my sacch rests into two seperate ranges depending on what I want in the final beer.

I don't think a 72 rest is necessary for good head, but it's definitely good for getting the desired result from the mash. Shorter or longer beta vs alpha for different levels of attenuation and different residual sugars.

It seems you are going after manticle for the fucj of it or just to disprove science Stu.

While I appreciate everyone does things a little different and are happy with their results, there is definitely some scientific data to show the difference between alpha and beta sacch rests on the final beer.

If you don't understand them I suggest you shut the old cake hole and have a read before you open it again.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

I am NOT "going" for Manticle. Whilst I may take a different view I do not disrespect what or how he does. I am just asking for, shall we say, some info,justification,methods & reasons. We all have different methods,recipies and ideas with regard to brewing.

I have known mants on here for a long time on here. Just because I have a difference of opinion & method does NOT mean I am having a go at him or am I after him

You can take you cake hole comment and insert it where you deem fit

 

[Dunkelbrau]

Its not the fact that you asked for "justification, methods and reason" he gave methods (higher mash temp) and reason (positive effect on head retention), and in doing so, gave justification (his reason why).
Its the fact you wont let it go.

If you cant read between the lines 1300655506 mate.

Facts are not ideas. Brewing is not an idealistic practice, it is quite scientific and you can understand as much or as little as you like, whether you take it all in or not is your choice, whether it is factual or not is not debatable.

Thats great that you have known him for a long time on here, but its clear he ended the conversation and you have been the typical online troll you are in a lot of threads and replied back after receiving no retort to your previous response.

Personally, i know there is a benefit to customising my mash profile, i also do mash out on all of my brews. I have also done decoctions, and am happy with the results. There are different temperatures for different beers, thats why people have been utilizing them for hundreds of years. How many brewers dont use those rests at 72? Lots..

How many professional brewers do? A hell of a lot more than the home brewers who dont.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Thankyou

 

[rbtmc]

Goodnight Maticle. May your head be in a constant state of retention.

OK. That made me LOL.

But Stu, we all know you're happy not following certain techniques -
e.g. pitching recommended number of yeast cells, sparging with water that isn't boiling, avoiding more complex mash schedules...
But consider this: Some brewers are anal about making the best possible beer they can. Can you blame them?

 

[TheWiggman]

* wades through head retention discussion *...

Fair enough. I plan to do a decoction and - by memory - what I read was that the wort should be removed from the mash grains and all and basically 'scooped out' at mash thickness. For me to do that I'll probably need to stir up the grain prior as it would likely have formed a nice bed by that stage.
The boil should then last 10-15 mins until the liquor has been reduced to a consistency where it's boiled down similar the reduction method for rice - enough to be covered in liquid, but no less.

Considering that, I think the driver for any decoction method will be reliant on your initial volume, volume removed, and target temp for the next step (which I'm sure you've thought through). Seeing as I'm only doing the one during the sacc rest it will be easy because a) I only have certain pot sizes and b) the next step will be mash out with a very hot sparge (85°C).

Now that I've re-read, it looks like you're using your kettle to do the decoction? That certainly makes for a challenge.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

 

[manticle]

@stu -I'm on a phone so I'll be brief and you'll need to do your own research but 72 is both a high end alpha rest and a glycoprotein rest. Glycoprotein effect on body and head retention has been the subject of some study.
However in addition to reading I have noticed a significant improvement since I started incorporating a 10 min 72 rest at the end of each mash. In conjunction with a short 55 rest at the beginning, it's even better.
By improvement I mean I get a fine creamy beaded head which lasts. I can come back to the glass 30 mins later and there's still lacing on the glass. This is a difference I have observed from experience as have other brewers with their beers (Screwtop, qldkev and mje1980 are a few of those).
I have not once said that NOT doing such a rest would lead to problems, just that I have observed, experientially a noticeable improvement since doing so and my observations are supported by others' experience and by science. Try it, don't try it, read about it or don't but at least read and understand what I wrote. I have never said necessary, only beneficial.

 

[luggy]

Each unto their own, nuff said

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

OK. That made me LOL.

But Stu, we all know you're happy not following certain techniques -
e.g. pitching recommended number of yeast cells, sparging with water that isn't boiling, avoiding more complex mash schedules...
But consider this: Some brewers are anal about making the best possible beer they can. Can you blame them?

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

OK. That made me LOL.

But Stu, we all know you're happy not following certain techniques -
e.g. pitching recommended number of yeast cells, sparging with water that isn't boiling, avoiding more complex mash schedules...
But consider this: Some brewers are anal about making the best possible beer they can. Can you blame them?

No.

Everyone has there own method & style of brewing beer.