Dead Set Biabginner with 19L BigW Stockpot

[Shaz_au]

Hey Guys and Gals,

I'm Shaz from Mount Gambier in SA. I've done a few extract brews over the years but I've really only been happy with the taste of one batch (a 150 lashes clone) the rest had a bit of a cidery taste that I didn't like, probably my fault! I thought I'd give BIAB a go and I received the pot and bag for a present so now I've got no excuses. Please note that I tend to research the crap out of things rather than getting on and doing them so I'd love some advice on getting it right and keeping things simple.

I've got:

• standard 19L stockpot from BigW
• Homemade voile bag to suit
• basic homebrew equipment that you'd get in the older style coopers kit
• access to tap water or "spring" water

Last night I tested out the pot and the stove. I found my electric element stove can bring 17 litres of cold water to the boil (eventually) with the lid on but cannot maintain a rolling boil with the lid off. I also found that water expands when heated and my pot started to boil over! So the plan is to insulate some of the pot walls using a rubber mat similar to this: https://www.coopers.com.au/coopers-forum/topic/14710/?page=1 Stupidly I didn't work out the boil off rate at the same time.

Recipe wise I was wondering if I should start with the All Amarillo APA (for Mini-BIAB) recipe that is used in the BIABrewer.info guide? http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=153

So can I use my standard sized fermenter with this small batch? Would I be complicating things too much by getting one of those green shed 10L blue containers with the tap and doing no chill and then fermenting in that too?

Thanks for reading my wall of text!
Cheers,
Shaz

 

[mtb]

Welcome on board Shaz.

Your cidery flavours from previous brews might have been infection or another process-related issue that you won't solve by going BIAB. Don't get me wrong - I highly recommend that you go BIAB / all grain - but I'd hate for you to put all your effort into your first batch, only for it to taste cidery too.

This great resource lists the following for "cidery" flavors;
Cidery
Cidery flavors can have several causes but are often the result of adding too much cane or corn sugar to a recipe. One component of a cidery flavor is acetaldehyde which has a green-apple character. It is a common fermentation byproduct and different yeasts will produce different levels of it depending on the recipe and temperature. Cidery flavors are encouraged by warmer than normal temperatures and can be decreased by lagering.

If you bottle with table/cane sugar, grab yourself some carbonation drops instead. They won't contribute the same off flavours, in my experience

 

[LAGERFRENZY]

G'day Shaz and welcome aboard. Are you fermenting with temperature control because fermenting at too high a temp can cause some nasty sour flavours.

 

[damoninja]

Welcome to the world of all grain

In all honesty, for the work that goes in to it and the headache it will cause you (been there done that) grab another 19L pot, it will be worth every cent at this point in time... Many a time was there spills and expletives. Unless you're only planning on doing tiny batches, but then I say again more value in doing a full batch as it's still gonna be a 4-5 hour day.

You can brew a 10L batch in a 30L vessel no problems.

My suggestion would be get a cube for no chill, I wouldn't personally use the same vessel to ferment for 2 reasons, first being you want your cube to be free of head space and air so it will be too small to ferement in, second they are a bitch to clean (you can clean with sodium perc or pink shit but why bother when you have an open lid fermenter?)

And agree with above, if there's an issue with off flavours, going all grain won't solve it but maybe piss you off more when you go to all the effort and end up with similar results. Don't let it discourage you from getting started though, take it as a reason to take extra care with the extra work that goes in to it

Keep brew day records!

 

[Pallyjim]

Mate I've got a similar setup, but I only do 10l batches in the 19l pot.
I just halve all the recipes, and find it easier to boil and chill a smaller amount of beer without all the fun toys.
That is until I buy a wort chiller and a 40l urn!

 

[Killer Brew]

Welcome Shaz and best of luck with AG. It seems daunting at the start but after a few you will realise it isn't that much harder and far more rewarding.

If you haven't found it yet make sure to have read through the below thread & try out the search function in your top right also as it makes accessing a wealth of info very easy. Failing that ask away as you will find plenty of willing helpers.
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/9233-frequently-asked-questions-for-the-new-brewer/

 

[BKBrews]

Welcome to the start of a slippery slope.

I managed to do 3 5L batches using my 19L pot and BIAB, before spending $1,000 on the grainfather and a further god knows how much to setup a 4-5 keg keezer. Not to mention all of the small equipment purchases along the way, with plenty more still to come I'd say!

 

[Shaz_au]

Wow, thanks for all the awesome replies!

Regarding temperature control guys, umm it's manual... I've tried several solutions. Unless it's the peak of summer the challenge in Mount Gambier is keeping the temperature high enough. In the past I tried an aquarium heater in the wort or putting the whole fermenter in a large storage crate filled with water to try and add more thermal mass to keep the temperature steady. I've had issues with the pitching temperature being on the warm side but after that I'm normally in the low end of the recommended range in the kit instructions. I can only remember one batch that was on the warm side but the result has always been the same.

I can rule out the carbonation sugar as the problem. With my one successful batch I tried several bottles each of brown sugar and white sugar along with the normal dextrose I use and my untrained palate couldn't tell the difference.

I guess the aim to start with was smaller BIAB batches with a final volume around 10L so I can brew often and gain some experience before I risk wasting too many ingredients and spend bigger money on burners, vessels, etc. The grainfather isn't an option unfortunately BKBrews!

OK so if I go no chill I'll still use my full size fermenter. Thanks!

No other glaring issues?

 

[GibboQLD]

I found my electric element stove can bring 17 litres of cold water to the boil (eventually) with the lid on but cannot maintain a rolling boil with the lid off. I also found that water expands when heated and my pot started to boil over! So the plan is to insulate some of the pot walls using a rubber mat similar to this: https://www.coopers.com.au/coopers-forum/topic/14710/?page=1

Hey, I recognise that thread/insulated pot!

One thing to keep in mind is that if you're using an insulated Big W pot on the electric stove, you'll probably need to leave an inch or two of insulation off the bottom of the pot. While the NBR foam can handle 120° C or so (theoretically), you really wouldn't want it too close to the stove element.

I guess the aim to start with was smaller BIAB batches with a final volume around 10L

That's about the batch size I typically make in the pot from the thread above -- I use the Coopers Craft fermenter and typically aim for around 11L into the fermenter.

Welcome to the forums!

 

[damoninja]

1. Yeast health
2. Sanitation (yes I would put yeast health above sanitation)
3. Temperature control

 

[mtb]

Million dollar question Shaz - what is your typical fermentation temp? What do you aim for vs what you achieve?

 

[ScottyDoesntKnow]

I did one basic pale ale kit brew and ended up with a similar cidery taste. The final gravity was much higher than I anticipated even after being in a temp controlled fridge and staying in the fermenter for a month. It also never carbonated properly. I'm 99.9 % sure that this was due to the poor quality kit yeast and must have given up before the job was done and created that cidery flavour. Instead of trying again, I'm like you and researched the crap out of BIAB and then jumped straight in with a 19l pot. Just finished off the last bottle of my first all grain brew on the weekend and it was as good as anything I can buy from my local bottle shop. 2nd brew is fermenting away nicely. This forum is the holy grail, no doubt you will already know that from your research. Someone on here will have an answer for just about anything you could need to ask.
So my biggest tip is to use a good quality yeast like SafaleUS-05!

 

[ScottyDoesntKnow]

And on temperature control, I bought an old fridge off a cousin years ago as a beer fridge for $50. Gave it a thorough clean out when I decided to start brewing and bought an stc-1000 temp controller off eBay for about $20 I think. Check out gumtree in your local area, I'm sure you will find a secondhand fridge for cheap, maybe even free!

 

[LAGERFRENZY]

Rule 1 - Kit fermentation temp instructions are always way too high - you need to try and get the fermentation vessel to be around a constant 19 c or less. Lots of ways to do fermentation control without forking out for a fridge. Just do a search on Fermentation Chambers.

 

[Shaz_au]

Typical brew temperatures (now looking like this is still too warm)

Pitch temperature was approx 26C (stick on thermometer)
Temperature dropped to around 23C by morning
Steadied around 20-22C for remainder

Gibbo, thanks for the pot mods! Yeah I'll give the insulation some space away from the element. I'd prefer not to have smoking rubber in the house. I've already measured out the pot for the etching trick. After testing out the pot last night I've been admiring the ball valve installation too and rethinking trying to put the pot in the oven for the mash instead of insulating the thing. Is yours the 3 piece valve that seems to be recommended?

I just checked out the available grain at the LHBS. I'll post a pic shortly.

Yup on the yeast comments. With the recipe above I was planning on US-05 yeast and possibly hydrating it first...

Thanks again!

 

[Shaz_au]

Here is the selection from the LHBS

 

[damoninja]

Typical brew temperatures (now looking like this is still too warm)

Pitch temperature was approx 26C (stick on thermometer)
Temperature dropped to around 23C by morning
Steadied around 20-22C for remainder

Yeast can do some funny shit at 26C. 23C still well on the high end for me 97.51% of the time.

And dunno exactly where you're from in SA but bloody hell $7 a kilo for any grain let along regular old munich is just offensive. Brewcraft is highway robbery.

 

[Judanero]

Scottydoesknow. Hit up Gumtree and you'll likely get a fridge for free, grab the STC off eBay, if keeping it warm enough is generally the issue you can get a heat belt for ~$20 from eBay also.

Sanitation, temp control, yeast management, recipe design are the main ones to nail and you'll be laughing.

I'm all for supporting the LHBS where possible provided the prices are reasonably competitive, staff knowledgeable, and yeast and hops are refrigerated.. There are plenty of online retailers that can likely offer you a larger selection at better prices.

Brewman.com.au (no affiliation) is the best I've dealt with.

You sound on your way Shaz, enjoy the ride!

 

[RdeVjun]

Welcome Shaz, glad you could join us at AHB! :beer:
Its pleasing to see that my elderly Mini-BIAB guide still gets let out for a run now and then even though it is in 'retirement'! B) There's been many an all- grain career launched with it, while the 19L big double ewe stockpot and a BIAB bag is a pretty low- cost and low- impact way to press the start button and it also has the potential to brew award- winning beer at the highest level (its no mean feat, but has indeed been done with 19L stockpot BIAB). FWIW, there's a few simple ways to scale up the batch size with the 19L pot too, but I would recommend a few Mini-BIAB batches first before ratcheting up production volume.
You should find much improved results with ferment temperature control (aim lower too, most ales <20C), with that licked, plus use of quality ingredients and taking sanitation seriously then you're just about guaranteed decent beer.
With getting a decent boil in the stockpot on your stove, as well as insulation that won't catch fire, we've found that floating a stainless bowl on the surface to reduce surface area and/or placing the lid on about halfway should also help, but never completely cover the lid during the boil as there's volatiles that do need to be vented throughout, only cover with the lid after the boil time is up (as per that excellent aforementioned guide).
When you talk about "spring" water, if it is going straight into the fermenter then it really should be sanitary to eliminate infection sources, best if the water is treated when the source is potentially compromised with microorganisms. For kits and extract dilution, boiling (and cooling of course) would do for plain water additions, however the Mini-BIAB and other all- grain methods usually boil all of the water at the culmination of the process and are undiluted anyway, no other biological treatment necessary in that case. No need to get too distracted with water treatment though as plenty of folks have reported use of untreated dilution water without harmful effects, it is more of a footnote now that you're graduating to all- grain.
WRT kit/ yeast instructions, internet and LHBS advice, always be prepared to challenge it, feel free to post questions here.
HTH, sing out if you get stuck and good luck!

 

[good4whatAlesU]

19L stockpots from Big W rock. I'm using one as my fermenter.

Add a Styrofoam box and a icebrick - your good to go