Controlling Gas Burners

[leahy268]

Hey everyone,

Currently still desiging my brewing system.
Have decided to go gas for the sakes of efficiency/lack of circuits in house..
Now this I plan to automate to some extent. Start of with a few things automated and then automate more as I go along.
Now i know I need to use proper LPG safety valves and flame detection circuits and so forth so i'm not asking about that.
What I am interested in seeing if anyone has tried is controlling the heat output of the flame.
I've searched all over here and other forums and can't find much.

I'm tempted on using a couple of 4 ring burners and putting solenoids on the individual rings. This would thereby give me around 7 different temperatures of my flames.
This I could automate. Solenoids are also relatively cheap.
At least for cheap ones. Wouldn't need to be expensive proper safety ones since there would be a proper shutoff valve behind all of this.
Now reading around here theres a lot of talk about 3 or 4 ring burners not being big enough..
(Only doing at most double batches and would wind sheild the burner so not sure if this is a big concern or not).

Another option would be a variable actuated valve and then it could be connected to any burner i liked. (Nasa, Mongolian, etc)
Anyone got any thoughts of where a cheap one can be found? Or ideas to make?
This could possibly result in sooty flames though from what I hear..

Third option would be to pulse the gas with a pilot light going.. Also could connect to any burner..
Does anyone know how effective this is??

Any thoughts on all of the above?
Has anyone tried any of that??

Thanks

Warwick

 

[pk.sax]

Why don't you just try running a gas fired herms? keep the herms container boiling/simmering and control the flow through the heat Ex. Easier than controlling burners themselves?

 

[Amin]

Gopha has a nice temperature controlled gas rig. (scroll up for pics) He is on AHB as well if you want to PM him about how he did it.

 

[leahy268]

Why don't you just try running a gas fired herms? keep the herms container boiling/simmering and control the flow through the heat Ex. Easier than controlling burners themselves?

The herms isn't the problem.. I'm more thinking of the Kettle atm. You know go flat out until it starts boiling and then slow to a rolling boil.
Hmm might see if I can PM Gopha..

 

[vortex]

The solenoids from a gas hot water heater might be a good place to start, I know others have used these to control gas electronically. Unsure of the legalities around this in a home setting.
I guess it depends on your burner, but I was thinking about this the other day for my own AG setup, I would just start with a single solenoid for the gas flow (purely for simplicity) and upgrade later if required.
I'm new to brewing admittedly but from what I can tell so far you may only need two or three settings, high/med/low perhaps, because I doubt 60L in a HLT would change temps so quickly that it would need very fine control. For your boiler you probably only need low/high because you're either heating to a boil, or boiling

Very interested in how you achieve this, however!

 

[leahy268]

Very interested in how you achieve this, however!

I will definitely post a full build log when i actually start building it..

 

[mr_tyreman]

I use 3 Mongolians for my HERMS, using 1/2" gas valves and a ballvalve to control flow. I use a BCS-462 to switch the burner solenoids and a pilot jet. I just set the flow with the ball valve and the BCS will switch the burners on and off to ramp to temp, as for the Kettle, i just keep an eye on the boil and regulate with the ball valve.

Techrite have the 23 jet Mongolians for cheap cheap

one tip for ya is to make sure the gas valves with operate from 0psi, some require 5psi pressure before they even bother opening

 

[benno1973]

Nev at gryphonbrewing had an automated gas setup from memory? Or am I dreaming that? Anyway, try contacting him here or just send him a PM, he might be able to help...

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Nev at gryphonbrewing had an automated gas setup from memory? Or am I dreaming that? Anyway, try contacting him here or just send him a PM, he might be able to help...

Yes, its all do able. I have only one gas solenoid controlling the gas flow to a 4 ring burner. I run some software that reads the temp and operates the the solenoid off and on.I think this is much easier than trying to control temp by multiple solenoids. The software is capable of running up to eight different function via relays.
You will need :
Solenoid (240v)
Software (free)
Relay board ( capable of switching 10Amp , 240v )
Flame detector
Ignition system
Control box , this controls the ignition system and cut off the gas if no flame is detected also has the reset button.
A DS 18B20 temp probe for the laptop to read the temp.
Nev

 

[leahy268]

Yes, its all do able. I have only one gas solenoid controlling the gas flow to a 4 ring burner. I run some software that reads the temp and operates the the solenoid off and on.I think this is much easier than trying to control temp by multiple solenoids. The software is capable of running up to eight different function via relays.
You will need :
Solenoid (240v)
Software (free)
Relay board ( capable of switching 10Amp , 240v )
Flame detector
Ignition system
Control box , this controls the ignition system and cut off the gas if no flame is detected also has the reset button.
A DS 18B20 temp probe for the laptop to read the temp.
Nev

Thanks Grypon..
I was wondering with this type of system though woudn't your kettle come off the boil when the flame went out?
4 burner adequate? Or is it not very efficient.
Just don't want to go out and buy a whole heap of equipment then turnaround and replace it in a couple of months.. Preferably..

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Thanks Grypon..
I was wondering with this type of system though woudn't your kettle come off the boil when the flame went out?
4 burner adequate? Or is it not very efficient.
Just don't want to go out and buy a whole heap of equipment then turnaround and replace it in a couple of months.. Preferably..

No, once you have put your mashing temp parameters into the software it will complete the mash cycle and the alarm will sound.
You then set the the software to manual (push 1 button) and turn the gas off and on as you like.
I use adjustable LPG reg. 3 rings to get to the boil then I close 2 and just have the outside ring to maintain boil (50l finish).
I have my software set up to run my mash paddle as well :icon_cheers:
Nev

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Have a look HERE.
Not my set up but exactly the same software and general gas set up. Thanks to my friend Lothar from Germany who put me on the road to automation. :icon_cheers:
Nev

 

[leahy268]

Hmm thanks for that Nev..

3 ring enough for 50L then??
Reading around here lots said no..
Sounds great then..
How efficient is that then? As in how long till it boils. How many 1 hr boils do you get out of a 9kg?
Most are pointing towards italian spirals and so forth.. Control not so easy on them though for me at least..
I am obviously attempting to make the process as automated as possible at least eventually...

Thanks..

Warwick

 

[markws]

Hi warwick

check out this thread for my brew rig - it may contain some information on gas solenoids, piulot lights and safety valve mechanisms that would be of value

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...markws+brew+rig

pls drop a pm for more info

cheers

mark ws

 

[XavierZ]

Hmm thanks for that Nev..

3 ring enough for 50L then??
Reading around here lots said no..
Sounds great then..
How efficient is that then? As in how long till it boils. How many 1 hr boils do you get out of a 9kg?
Most are pointing towards italian spirals and so forth.. Control not so easy on them though for me at least..
I am obviously attempting to make the process as automated as possible at least eventually...

Thanks..

Warwick

Google and Physics is your friend

You'd probably be more interested in how long it would take rather than if it could be done.

I worked out that if you were to bring 40L of water from 40degC to 70degC with a 52MJ
three ring burner in a 50L keggle, ideally it would take about 4 hours.

Here's the maths. Hopefully it's correct. Someone let me know if there's a mistake.

Specific heat water: 4.186 J/kg
You want to heat: 40Kg (1L = 1Kg)
To temperature: 40C
You will require: (4.186*40*40)/1000 = 6.6976 MJ (of total heat to to heat from 0C to 40C)

Specific heat SS: 500 J/kg
weight of keggle:13.5 Kg
To temperature: 40C
You will require: (500*13.5*40)/1000 = 270 MJ (of total heat to to heat from 0C to 40C)
Total heat required: 276.6976 MJ (of total heat to to heat from 0C to 40C)

3 ring burner provides: 52 MJ/hr (of heat energy)
time to heat water from 0 to 40 is: 5.3 hours


Specific heat water: 4.186 J/kg
You want to heat: 40 Kg (1L = 1Kg)
To temperature: 70C
You will require: (4.186*40*70)/1000 = 11.7208 MJ (of total heat to to heat from 0C to 70C)

Specific heat SS: 500 J/kg
weight of keggle: 13.5 Kg
To temperature: 70C
You will require: (500*13.5*70)/1000 = 472.5 MJ (of total heat to to heat from 0C to 70C)
Total heat required: 484.2208 MJ (of total heat to to heat from 0C to 70C)

3 ring burner provides: 52 MJ/hr (of heat energy)
time to heat water from 0 to 70 is: 9.3 hours

energy to heat from 40 to 70: (484.2208-276.6976)=207.5232 MJ
Time to heat from 40 to 70: 3.99 hours

 

[redlegger]

Hmm thanks for that Nev..

3 ring enough for 50L then??
Reading around here lots said no..
Sounds great then..
How efficient is that then? As in how long till it boils. How many 1 hr boils do you get out of a 9kg?
Most are pointing towards italian spirals and so forth.. Control not so easy on them though for me at least..
I am obviously attempting to make the process as automated as possible at least eventually...

Thanks..

Warwick

my 3 ring does 50L no probs,
15-20mins to mash temp, then about the same to the boil i then turn off the inside burner and it gets a nice big rolling boil

i usually get 4-5 batches from a 9kg bottle, i could probably squeeze another one or two out if i didnt have such a vigorous boil

edit: i am a BIABer!

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Google and Physics is your friend

You'd probably be more interested in how long it would take rather than if it could be done.

I worked out that if you were to bring 40L of water from 40degC to 70degC with a 52MJ
three ring burner in a 50L keggle, ideally it would take about 4 hours.

Here's the maths. Hopefully it's correct. Someone let me know if there's a mistake.

Specific heat water: 4.186 J/kg
You want to heat: 40Kg (1L = 1Kg)
To temperature: 40C
You will require: (4.186*40*40)/1000 = 6.6976 MJ (of total heat to to heat from 0C to 40C)

Specific heat SS: 500 J/kg
weight of keggle:13.5 Kg
To temperature: 40C
You will require: (500*13.5*40)/1000 = 270 MJ (of total heat to to heat from 0C to 40C)
Total heat required: 276.6976 MJ (of total heat to to heat from 0C to 40C)

3 ring burner provides: 52 MJ/hr (of heat energy)
time to heat water from 0 to 40 is: 5.3 hours


Specific heat water: 4.186 J/kg
You want to heat: 40 Kg (1L = 1Kg)
To temperature: 70C
You will require: (4.186*40*70)/1000 = 11.7208 MJ (of total heat to to heat from 0C to 70C)

Specific heat SS: 500 J/kg
weight of keggle: 13.5 Kg
To temperature: 70C
You will require: (500*13.5*70)/1000 = 472.5 MJ (of total heat to to heat from 0C to 70C)
Total heat required: 484.2208 MJ (of total heat to to heat from 0C to 70C)

3 ring burner provides: 52 MJ/hr (of heat energy)
time to heat water from 0 to 70 is: 9.3 hours

energy to heat from 40 to 70: (484.2208-276.6976)=207.5232 MJ
Time to heat from 40 to 70: 3.99 hours

4 Hrs no way, from lauter tun till boil max is about 30-40 mins depending on how long the sparge took.
Nev

 

[XavierZ]

4 Hrs no way, from lauter tun till boil max is about 30-40 mins depending on how long the sparge took.
Nev

in basic theory anyway.

 

[bignath]

Google and Physics is your friend

You'd probably be more interested in how long it would take rather than if it could be done.

I worked out that if you were to bring 40L of water from 40degC to 70degC with a 52MJ
three ring burner in a 50L keggle, ideally it would take about 4 hours.

Here's the maths. Hopefully it's correct. Someone let me know if there's a mistake.

Specific heat water: 4.186 J/kg
You want to heat: 40Kg (1L = 1Kg)
To temperature: 40C
You will require: (4.186*40*40)/1000 = 6.6976 MJ (of total heat to to heat from 0C to 40C)

Specific heat SS: 500 J/kg
weight of keggle:13.5 Kg
To temperature: 40C
You will require: (500*13.5*40)/1000 = 270 MJ (of total heat to to heat from 0C to 40C)
Total heat required: 276.6976 MJ (of total heat to to heat from 0C to 40C)

3 ring burner provides: 52 MJ/hr (of heat energy)
time to heat water from 0 to 40 is: 5.3 hours


Specific heat water: 4.186 J/kg
You want to heat: 40 Kg (1L = 1Kg)
To temperature: 70C
You will require: (4.186*40*70)/1000 = 11.7208 MJ (of total heat to to heat from 0C to 70C)

Specific heat SS: 500 J/kg
weight of keggle: 13.5 Kg
To temperature: 70C
You will require: (500*13.5*70)/1000 = 472.5 MJ (of total heat to to heat from 0C to 70C)
Total heat required: 484.2208 MJ (of total heat to to heat from 0C to 70C)

3 ring burner provides: 52 MJ/hr (of heat energy)
time to heat water from 0 to 70 is: 9.3 hours

energy to heat from 40 to 70: (484.2208-276.6976)=207.5232 MJ
Time to heat from 40 to 70: 3.99 hours

That's not even close to being any where near accurate.

I don't understand the physics behind what you've posted, but in real world experience, my 3 ring burner puts out a shitload of heat. As much as a mongolian or a spiral? Probably not, i don't own one.

I can say without a shadow of a doubt that my 3 ring under my boiler handles DOUBLE batches (46.5lt pre boil) no worries. Gets from mashout to a raging boil in 20-25minutes, have to turn the rings down (some of them off) to keep the boil under control.

typically 5-6 double batches out of a 9kg bottle easily. Every time i go to get it refilled (**** swap n go) they tell me that it still had a fair bit of gas left. Dunno what that means in quantitative terms though.

 

[XavierZ]

I did say "Hopefully it's correct. Someone let me know if there's a mistake."

right. i made a HUGE mistake. sorry bout that.
I was a bit too keen.

it is closer to 15min by guestimation.