Conditioning keg - could there be extra bitterness pulling from bottom

[trustyrusty]

Hi Guys

There were a few posts that I was reading and they were not direct responses to the questions so I cannot find them.

For those that naturally condition in the keg, do you think that you might get an exrta bitterness pulling the beer from the bottom?

I found there is a little for trub / yeast at the bottom, even if you cut of an inch on tube could you still be pulling close to trub?

I find the bottom of the keg with a little trub at the bottom when cleaning, less that a quarter of an inch..

Thanks.

 

[MHB]

Well maybe, its not dependant on whether the beer is force carbed or naturally conditioned, the amount of yeast will be the same (or very similar) as the yeast cant reproduce (much) without oxygen.
Iso-Alpha will however stick to most everything including yeast, and any chill haze trub that forms in the keg, so yes when you suck up some of the trub with the first couple of beers - yes it can be quite a lot bitterer than the rest of the beer. Same again right at the end when any sediment starts to get stirred up and mixed with the beer.

Having less trub is really the only answer, get your beer as clean as you can before kegging, lagering first will remove the chill haze and let the yeast settle out to.
If you want to naturally condition, very little yeast is required, a lot less than people expect.
Mark

 

[Mozz]

Yes. And sweetness.
Half a dozen pints in and much better. A bit more and excellent. I don't think it's so much pulling trub off the bottom but the liquid in the keg stratifying into layers.
Was wondering when this topic would come up.
I cold crash clear and force carb but still happens.

 

[trustyrusty]

Interesting about layers, I have found that sometimes is fine and then bitter... and then is ok again, so could be that. Will cold crashing the fermenter or layering fix this. I guess in commercial set ups they would filter?

Is there anything I can do in the keg, I have 2 kegs waiting for the fridge and they are carbed or close to... Thanks

 

[MHB]

Stuff in solution doesn't really settle into layers, if that was the case all the salt in the ocean would work its way to the bottom.
For layers to form there would have to be something insoluble in there - trub. Depending on the temperature and time polyphenols and proteins can still be forming haze particles and they can take a fair while to migrate all the way to the bottom of the keg, carrying Iso-Alpha with them, if the beer warms back up they can go back into solution, and around we go again.

I would suggest that even if the ferment is finished and you have cold crashed, that the beer isn't stable (lagered) and that what you are observing is different concentrations of trub heading toward the bottom, lagering can take weeks. Really it means you started drinking the beer too soon. Give it time to mature and fully clear and you wont have the problem with the taste changing.

I guess from an observational point of view you could say that the beer has layers, but the reason for the process isn't the beer stratifying into layers.
Mark

 

[Grott]

I find that having the kegs in the fridge 2 weeks plus before using tends to solidify the bulk of the trub on the bottom of the keg and therefore not a problem when dispensing.
Cheers

 

[trustyrusty]

Thanks - I have it in the fridge for a week or two if I can help not drinking it, it tends to help of course, my main concern is being close to the trub when pulling does it pull a very small part (microns) that add that little bit of bitterness or it does not. I made a czech pilsner the other day that I did not think was supposed to be bitter, this has a lot of late bitterness - so it got me thinking if it was the keg or the way I was doing it, and maybe a should cold crash before I kegged?

 

[peteru]

I made a czech pilsner the other day that I did not think was supposed to be bitter

I would be questioning whether you were making a true Czech Pilsener or whether your expectations are off the mark. A Pilsener is definitely supposed to be bitter. The bitterness should be balanced with malt and aroma, but it is definitely a bitter beer. It should have no astringency.

 

[trustyrusty]

Well probably the whole point of the post, I expected less bitterness because Mangrove Jacks Tin - said 'light and delicate', as I thought Pilseners were, so I thought it maybe my processes but I think they way I am doing it does not help as this does have a very late bitterness I would not expect the beer to have as much as I have got...
Definitely a slight unpleasant bitter after taste, late lingering tannins or sourness - astringency as you call it.

 

[peteru]

The real Pilsener should hit you with malt and hop aromas, give you a tiny bit of sweetness that gives way to bitterness. It should have a long bitter finish, but the bitterness should be a pleasant thirst quenching kind. It should not have any sour or tannin qualities that would give you a puckering sensation. It's hard to tell where it comes from in your batch, but I doubt it would be from the way the beer was kegged. The most likely scenarios would be that the product in the tin didn't quite hit the mark or that the tin was not fresh or stored well. Other suspects would be the selection of yeast or possibly a low level infection, maybe even oxidisation. I think the character of your beer would change more due to continuing reactions in the beer, rather than due to some physical separation in the keg.

 

[trustyrusty]

Hi I took across the road to neighbour and he liked it so I guess is subjective, I still think there is an extra bitterness that is not part of the character but from the technique...

cheers

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Thanks - I have it in the fridge for a week or two if I can help not drinking it, it tends to help of course, my main concern is being close to the trub when pulling does it pull a very small part (microns) that add that little bit of bitterness or it does not. I made a czech pilsner the other day that I did not think was supposed to be bitter, this has a lot of late bitterness - so it got me thinking if it was the keg or the way I was doing it, and maybe a should cold crash before I kegged?

I assume your taking notes of all your taste testing in the recipe? Consider you can draught your beer to bottes at their peak quality.
Not that I've ever bothered to in a mass amount but its good to take taste test notes and that can tell you the best part of the stage.
Its also fair to my note that a disturbed yeast cake (like a rolled bottle conditioned beer) can be smoother and more rounded in flavours. Not more bitter. That's my take on it by my taste buds anyway.

 

[Mozz]

Give it another few days "lagering" and I bet the flavours mellow and improve. I quite like tasting the changes over a week or so.