Children And Binge Drinking

[tcraig20]

Now that just smacks of anti-intellectualism, which is fine just not very clever.

Not really. Im one of those academics myself.

Perhaps I make my own point?

 

[seravitae]

This is hillarious. More attempts by the media, academia and the government trying to control human behavior.

Suggesting that trying some alcohol will lead to alcohol abuse/alcoholism is like suggesting that kids who masturbate sets them on the road to being a rapist or something equally as rediculous.

In fact, my parents wouldn't let me drink any form of booze underage - not by governmental rules, but by merely a reflection of my maturity. Many moons ago I told them "if you don't trust me with alcohol, let me prove it." So I organised a homebrew kit, and a few months after there I was with a hundred liters of alcohol in my room, sipping a beer with my old man, and the trust set in when he realised I wasn't drinking more than 1 a day (more often about 1 a week IF that!)



Telling people they can't do something only incites them more, the govt needs to change policy in order to allow people who think they are mature enough to prove it, give them confidence to be safe with booze..

 

[danbeer]

This is hillarious. More attempts by the media, academia and the government trying to control human behavior.

Suggesting that trying some alcohol will lead to alcohol abuse/alcoholism is like suggesting that kids who masturbate sets them on the road to being a rapist or something equally as rediculous.

Hehe.. Like how milk kills people: 100% of people who drank milk as a child, will die.


A lit of people miss the correlation =/= causation thing.... :lol:

 

[Supra-Jim]

Hehe.. Like how milk kills people: 100% of people who drank milk as a child, will die.

Crap! Does this include milk used in coffees??? :huh:

But yes the point you make is quite valid, studies also show 4/3 people don't understand statistics properly!

More attempts by the media, academia and the government trying to control human behavior.

And yes it would be refreshing to see more personal responsibility existing in society, rather than a vocal minority expecting/demanding the government to legislate basic behaviours most people seem adequately capable of.

Cheers SJ

 

[jbirbeck]

Telling people they can't do something only incites them more, the govt needs to change policy in order to allow people who think they are mature enough to prove it, give them confidence to be safe with booze..

Agreed.

And as a tax specialist with a little bit of experience in this area the main change I would be recommending is taxation. Wine Equalisation tax has to go, it taxes on the value of the product not the amount of alcohol. So the result you pay less tax per glass if you drink cask wine than if you drink bottled. Hardly encouraging responsible drinking, if anything encouraging binge drinking and alcohol abuse...

Secondly, support for craft breweries and a system that penalises mass produced beers aimed at mass consumption. The culture around drinking needs to change by force - encourage savouring finer products rather than guzzling products produced for the sole reason of guzzling (because thats what the market wants...so a bit circular).

 

[seravitae]

Good points.

Also, this might just be my personal life experience, but those I know who were exposed to alcohol early tended to express less desire for it in later life. That is to say, that during different life stages (child, puberty, adolescent, adult) there are different 'flavours of the month' (toys, girls, more girls + alcohol, alcohol/drugs respectively). Essentially, because of legalities of alcohol specifically, it's a "hot topic" at some point. Early and limited exposure tends to make people treat things as 'no big deal' and abuse becoms less of a problem.

Also, young people are more aware of their emotions and sensory system as they are more interested in their own wellbeing, early exposure to alcohol may actually teach children that drinking too much makes your body unwell - and may teach them better than an adult, who has a more complex though process (by which they can conciously override their body's signals of distress in order to drink more for the sake of social aspects or other elements involved in the consumption of alcohol). I know adults that would drink too much, throw up, and continue drinking. Why? There's no logical reason. Your body said no. Try doing that with a child, and they'll protest any more consumption...

 

[tcraig20]

And as a tax specialist with a little bit of experience in this area the main change I would be recommending is taxation. Wine Equalisation tax has to go, it taxes on the value of the product not the amount of alcohol. So the result you pay less tax per glass if you drink cask wine than if you drink bottled. Hardly encouraging responsible drinking, if anything encouraging binge drinking and alcohol abuse...

I agree. Excise should be levied on alcoholic content universally, not the bizzare system that currently exists.

Secondly, support for craft breweries and a system that penalises mass produced beers aimed at mass consumption. The culture around drinking needs to change by force - encourage savouring finer products rather than guzzling products produced for the sole reason of guzzling (because thats what the market wants...so a bit circular).

Doesnt this just reintroduce the complexity that we just got rid of with the WET? I really dont think that the quality of the product has much to do with a guzzling culture. If nothing else was available, people would guzzle craft beer, with little consideration of the subtle and sublime qualities of the product. I dont think that any law, regulation, or tax regime is going to turn the average punter into a real ale ****.

 

[chappo1970]

Soooooo, I shouldn't be teaching my 4 and 8 year old to binge drink then? Seems really silly to me. It's much more fun than going to park or throwing a footy/cricket ball I really suggest you try it sometime.


Chappo

 

[geoffi]

Hehe.. Like how milk kills people: 100% of people who drank milk as a child, will die.


A lit of people miss the correlation =/= causation thing.... :lol:

I heard a news report stating that 50% of smokers will die.

Light up, folks! That's 50/50 shot at immortality!

 

[jbirbeck]

I agree. Excise should be levied on alcoholic content universally, not the bizzare system that currently exists.



Doesnt this just reintroduce the complexity that we just got rid of with the WET? I really dont think that the quality of the product has much to do with a guzzling culture. If nothing else was available, people would guzzle craft beer, with little consideration of the subtle and sublime qualities of the product. I dont think that any law, regulation, or tax regime is going to turn the average punter into a real ale ****.

Quite right, guzzlers will be guzzlers. But a WET style rebate in a different tax system doesn't create the same problems. WET is a problem because of the fact its is ad valorem (price) based, while excise is volumetric (quantity of alc). Providing a rebate along the same lines as the current microbrewery rebate (which is similar to the WET) encourages smaller producers. Smaller producers and more of them increases choice and with great choice there is an increased chance of more discerning drinkers... I don't have the cash to guzzle craft brews, but I certainly like to drink them.

 

[Mercs Own]

My 13 year was sitting at the kitchen bench a few months back and casually asked "Dad, what does vodka taste like?" So I went over to the fine port and spirit cabinet and got the vodka out and poured a small amount into a wine glass and gave it to her. She was surprised, shocked and aghast - I just said have a sniff, you dont have to taste it if you dont want to but since you asked have a sniff and see what flavours you find. She did so and was not impressed at all, I think she may have dipped her finger in and then licked the very small amount of vodka off of it and was certainly unimpressed. Ultimately she got an answer to her question and discovered vodka tastes like nail polish remover and certainly will remember it as something unpleasant. She is not the sort of kid that if I had of answered her query by saying wait until you are old enough to then sneak some when I wasnt around or go mad on the stuff because I had told her it was bad etc etc you get my point. She will on occassion have a sip of my beer or my wine but if she does I will always ask her what it tastes like, can she detect bitternes, maltiness, berries in the wine, oak in the chardonnay etc in short I am trying to teach her to appreciate the flavours and subtleties in what ever it is she tries. I do the same when I cook with her and all my daughters.

To suggest banning alcohol for anyone under 18 is ridiculous - firstly how are you going to police it secondly and most importantly it takes responsibility away from good and proper parenting and lastly it will create a bigger problem than the misguided idea is trying to prevent.

At Xmas time I have given my kids a little glass of champagne and we toast Xmas cheers, they have never once finished it! Am I teaching them to binge drink, drink responsibly or just taking the myth away?

Just to clarify one of my daughters will not and has never touched alcohol - she is almost 18 and it is something she is not interested in in the slightest.

 

[Leigh]

Ah yeah. And what do you do for a living?




You may want to consider the news cycle and how it relates to the scientific community.

(Seems unfortunately closer to the truth than I'd like)

That looks marginally better than the science and reporting done on AHB 34r:

Bingo.

None of my research has ever made it to the media without first going via the media liaison officer, then a journalist until it looks nothing like the boring, scientific papers i publish.

A few years back i was researching anti-cancer drugs and the preliminary results showed that the drug i had developed had a 100% kill rate in a test tube.

Released to the media it would have read something like - Monash researcher has found the cure for cancer.

Not all us scientists/academics are up ourselves Bribie! Some of us are normal drunks like the rest of ya :lol:

So who'd you work for (or who worked for you)? Did my undergrad and PhD @ Monash Chem.

 

[Adamt]

Just to clarify one of my daughters will not and has never touched alcohol - she is almost 18 and it is something she is not interested in in the slightest.

If she has friends and is not supervised 24/7, I wouldn't be so sure she's NEVER touched alcohol.

 

[peas_and_corn]

My 13 year was sitting at the kitchen bench a few months back and casually asked "Dad, what does vodka taste like?" So I went over to the fine port and spirit cabinet and got the vodka out and poured a small amount into a wine glass and gave it to her. She was surprised, shocked and aghast - I just said have a sniff, you dont have to taste it if you dont want to but since you asked have a sniff and see what flavours you find. She did so and was not impressed at all, I think she may have dipped her finger in and then licked the very small amount of vodka off of it and was certainly unimpressed. Ultimately she got an answer to her question and discovered vodka tastes like nail polish remover and certainly will remember it as something unpleasant. She is not the sort of kid that if I had of answered her query by saying wait until you are old enough to then sneak some when I wasnt around or go mad on the stuff because I had told her it was bad etc etc you get my point. She will on occassion have a sip of my beer or my wine but if she does I will always ask her what it tastes like, can she detect bitternes, maltiness, berries in the wine, oak in the chardonnay etc in short I am trying to teach her to appreciate the flavours and subtleties in what ever it is she tries. I do the same when I cook with her and all my daughters.

To suggest banning alcohol for anyone under 18 is ridiculous - firstly how are you going to police it secondly and most importantly it takes responsibility away from good and proper parenting and lastly it will create a bigger problem than the misguided idea is trying to prevent.

At Xmas time I have given my kids a little glass of champagne and we toast Xmas cheers, they have never once finished it! Am I teaching them to binge drink, drink responsibly or just taking the myth away?

Just to clarify one of my daughters will not and has never touched alcohol - she is almost 18 and it is something she is not interested in in the slightest.

While I don't have children- and I certainly don't plan to have any in the near future- this sounds like a very balanced way of handling the issue. Making alcohol this 'taboo product' only mystifies it, and teaching responsibility is the key.

 

[Mercs Own]

If she has friends and is not supervised 24/7, I wouldn't be so sure she's NEVER touched alcohol.

She has friends and goes to parties where her friends drink and oftentimes get drunk - she has never touched a drop and doesnt really understand why her friends get drunk as they become rather boring and obnoxious not to mention loud and out of control. She doesnt need to be supervised, she has a brain and she makes her own choices she has never been one to follow the crowd - same goes for my oldest who has gone to a party on occassion and come home tipsy after two alco pops whilst those around her drink themselves stupid and end up vomiting in the gutter - she doesnt understand that either.

I have no doubt that if she had an alcoholic drink or even a taste she would tell us - we are that kind of family 100%

 

[Airgead]

She has friends and goes to parties where her friends drink and oftentimes get drunk - she has never touched a drop and doesnt really understand why her friends get drunk as they become rather boring and obnoxious not to mention loud and out of control. She doesnt need to be supervised, she has a brain and she makes her own choices she has never been one to follow the crowd - same goes for my oldest who has gone to a party on occassion and come home tipsy after two alco pops whilst those around her drink themselves stupid and end up vomiting in the gutter - she doesnt understand that either.

I have no doubt that if she had an alcoholic drink or even a taste she would tell us - we are that kind of family 100%

Good on you Merc. A sensible approach. That's what I am trying with my two (currently 6 and 9). I hope they turn out as well as yours seem to have.

Currently my youngest always wants to taste my beer. The conversation is always like this -
Her - "Dad, can I try your beer? you make really excellent beer"
Me - " I do make excellent beer but you don't like beer. You say its disgusting"
Her - "I might like this one"
Me - "OK"
Her - *tinysip* "Dad that is so disgusting"
Me - "told you so"

Oldest refuses to touch a drop. "Dad, you should know that drinking is bad for kids so we should wait until we are older".

Cheers
Dave

 

[gap]

She has friends and goes to parties where her friends drink and oftentimes get drunk - she has never touched a drop and doesn't really understand why her friends get drunk as they become rather boring and obnoxious not to mention loud and out of control. She doesn't need to be supervised, she has a brain and she makes her own choices she has never been one to follow the crowd - same goes for my oldest who has gone to a party on occasion and come home tipsy after two alco pops whilst those around her drink themselves stupid and end up vomiting in the gutter - she doesnt understand that either.

I have no doubt that if she had an alcoholic drink or even a taste she would tell us - we are that kind of family 100%

i dont usually post in these sorts of threads .

I support you 100%. i have complete trust in my kids and their ability to control
their own lives, not submitting to peer pressure. They have been exposed to Alcohol
from an early age and are encouraged to smell and taste whatever I am drinking.

Except for most of my beer they find most alcohol repulsive to smell and even worse to taste.

Regards

Graeme

 

[tcraig20]

Quite right, guzzlers will be guzzlers. But a WET style rebate in a different tax system doesn't create the same problems. WET is a problem because of the fact its is ad valorem (price) based, while excise is volumetric (quantity of alc). Providing a rebate along the same lines as the current microbrewery rebate (which is similar to the WET) encourages smaller producers. Smaller producers and more of them increases choice and with great choice there is an increased chance of more discerning drinkers... I don't have the cash to guzzle craft brews, but I certainly like to drink them.

It seems that I have misunderstood how the WET works. I had thought that it was more or less a direct excise rebate.

But I had thought that the WET was designed to encourage small wineries, much as you propose for craft brewing rebates. Am I wrong? If not, why hasnt it worked, and why should we expect it to work for beer?

Sorry for taking things so horrifically offtopic.

 

[Adamt]

She has friends and goes to parties where her friends drink and oftentimes get drunk - she has never touched a drop and doesnt really understand why her friends get drunk as they become rather boring and obnoxious not to mention loud and out of control.

That's great that your daughter has that mentality and it sounds like she's been raised very well. I followed, and still do follow the same ideal regarding excessive drinking. Ignoring the inevitable peer pressure to get sloshed is not easy and I hope she can continue it until her friends get over the "binging phase".

 

[jbirbeck]

It seems that I have misunderstood how the WET works. I had thought that it was more or less a direct excise rebate.

But I had thought that the WET was designed to encourage small wineries, much as you propose for craft brewing rebates. Am I wrong? If not, why hasnt it worked, and why should we expect it to work for beer?

Sorry for taking things so horrifically offtopic.

WET is a wholesale sales tax levied at the last wholesale sale in the supply chain. Where a producer sells directly to the public WET is levied at that point. The tax itself is calculated on the value of the wine. So a $10 bottle of wine and a $10 cask of wine have the same tax levied on them as a whole but massively different tax amount per standard drink ($0.09 for cask and $0.24 for bottle). The problem in that is it effectively encourages producers to make cask wine and/or consumers to buy it because its cheaper ergo indirectly encouraging drinking of products that are known to be linked with binge drinking and alcohol abuse.

The WET rebate alleviates this to an extent as it remove the tax distortion making it more appealing for producers to produce higher quality wine. However, again because its a tax on the value of the wine as a producer grows in size it comes closer to going over the threshold for the rebate and being subject to tax again it effectively encourages the producer to move towards bulk wine to maximise supply, profit margins etc. Bear in mind that is tax policy talking not real world. Real world is there would be few producers that would compromise their brand that enabled the growth and switch from high value low volume products to low cost high volume...

The WET rebate is a full tax rebate for small producers for sales up to about $1m. But, because WET is based on value not alcohol content it is biased towards the low cost high volume products (taking it back to the topic) which encourages binge drinking. I think this issue was raised as part of the Opposition's comments around the alcopops excise change...

In terms of a craft brewing rebate (a fair go for Craft Beer - I think this is what they are looking for...tax policy is my area so if you need help with submissions I've done a few), the rebate would be based on the amount of tax paid as the WET rebate is, but rather than the tax being calculated on value sold, it would be calculated on alcohol content. This process works against high alcohol products but not against high value high quality products which a value based tax does...The end result in this scheme would be - the brewers that produce the best beer at a low alcohol level could be tax free for a longer (more sales) than the high alcohol versions and therefore indirectly encourages responsible drinking...

Re letting kids drink - my 2 yo wants to try all of my beers. She can have a sip, and we talk about the flavour. Its a learning experience. The rouble is she keeps asking for more so I have to say no. :lol: