Changing The Method Of Sanitizing My Bottles

[thomfam]

I have been brewing now for about 6 years. During that time I have always sanitized my plastic PET bottles using Sodium Metabisulphite. This has involved a quick rinse of the bottles in a mixture of 5+ litres of water and about 60gms of Sodium Meta and then letting them stand for 15 minutes or so before rinsing and drying. Over the six years I have only had one brew I have had to tip out (many years ago) so I reckon my methodology had been OK. However despite using the same mix and method, brews seem to differ a bit in taste and quality.

I thought I would change my sanitizing method away from Metabi and just use standard household bleach.

I always rinse bottles out several times as soon as they have been emptied. When dry the screw top goes back on and they sit until they are to be washed. I wash them and let them stand to drain before sanitizing them.

I thought I would try filling each bottle with a mix of 4ml of household bleach per litre of water or about 100mls of bleach per 23 litres. They would then stand and soak full of 'sanitizer' for 30 minutes. Later the bottles would be thoroughly rinsed in warm water to get rid of any left over chlorine smell and taste.

Searching the net brought up ranges from less bleach per litre (under 4ml per litre) up to 200mls per 23 litres. On the net one person said using too much bleach could result in a chlorine taste in the beer.

Is 4mls of bleach per litre of water a strong enough mix to effectively (and very cheaply) sanitize bottles prior to filling?

 

[np1962]

I have been brewing now for about 6 years. During that time I have always sanitized my plastic PET bottles using Sodium Metabisulphite. This has involved a quick rinse of the bottles in a mixture of 5+ litres of water and about 60gms of Sodium Meta and then letting them stand for 15 minutes or so before rinsing and drying. Over the six years I have only had one brew I have had to tip out (many years ago) so I reckon my methodology had been OK. However despite using the same mix and method, brews seem to differ a bit in taste and quality.

I thought I would change my sanitizing method away from Metabi and just use standard household bleach.

I always rinse bottles out several times as soon as they have been emptied. When dry the screw top goes back on and they sit until they are to be washed. I wash them and let them stand to drain before sanitizing them.

I thought I would try filling each bottle with a mix of 4ml of household bleach per litre of water or about 100mls of bleach per 23 litres. They would then stand and soak full of 'sanitizer' for 30 minutes. Later the bottles would be thoroughly rinsed in warm water to get rid of any left over chlorine smell and taste.

Searching the net brought up ranges from less bleach per litre (under 4ml per litre) up to 200mls per 23 litres. On the net one person said using too much bleach could result in a chlorine taste in the beer.

Is 4mls of bleach per litre of water a strong enough mix to effectively (and very cheaply) sanitize bottles prior to filling?

Do a search for bleach/vinegar no rinse sanitiser.
I use 30ml Bleach and 30ml vinegar in a fermenter full of water for all my sanitising. No Problems so far.

Nige

 

[Bribie G]

I use quite a lot of bleach, usually a 2L jug of water, a sploosh of bleach (don't ask me how much a sploosh it, probably a third of a cup?) line up the bottles in the sink in batches, pour a few cm of the solution in each, shake them around with the caps on (PET), let them stand for a while then rinse about four times each with cold water and rinse the inside of the cap well. I've never had a bad bottle yet after 50 brews, although I've had a couple of crook entire batches from fermenter / yeast farming issues and thinking of upping my fermenter sterilisation to some of the brewery cleaners you can get from CraftBrewer et al.

Nige what effect does the vinegar have, does it neutralise the chlorine or something?

 

[RetsamHsam]

Nige what effect does the vinegar have, does it neutralise the chlorine or something?

My understanding is it activates the chlorine.. Something to do with the acid busting open the chlorine molecules and putting more available chlorine into the mix

Edit: A no rinse solution would be 1.5 ml bleach 1.5 ml vinegar to 1L water. Note: do not mix the bleach and vinegar directly

 

[np1962]

My understanding is it activates the chlorine.. Something to do with the acid busting open the chlorine molecules and putting more available chlorine into the mix

Edit: A no rinse solution would be 1.5 ml bleach 1.5 ml vinegar to 1L water. Note: do not mix the bleach and vinegar directly

My understanding also, the change in the Ph of the water aids the bleach to do its work.
Ratio 30ml Bleach, 30ml Vinegar, 20L Water same as Rets. for no rinse.

Nige

 

[np1962]

I use quite a lot of bleach, usually a 2L jug of water, a sploosh of bleach (don't ask me how much a sploosh it, probably a third of a cup?) line up the bottles in the sink in batches, pour a few cm of the solution in each, shake them around with the caps on (PET), let them stand for a while then rinse about four times each with cold water and rinse the inside of the cap well. I've never had a bad bottle yet after 50 brews, although I've had a couple of crook entire batches from fermenter / yeast farming issues and thinking of upping my fermenter sterilisation to some of the brewery cleaners you can get from CraftBrewer et al.

Nige what effect does the vinegar have, does it neutralise the chlorine or something?

Bribie,
With that amount of bleach you definitely need to make sure you rinse thoroughly. Too much residual bleach can be a cause of unwanted phenolics in your finished beer.

Nige

 

[troopa]

All i do is rinse each bottle after drinking with a little water
store in a cupboard in the kitchen till the cupboard is full
When i get a chance i then fill a 30L square bucket thing up with water add a cap full of Vinegar/Bleach
Fill the bottles up and then tip water out and let dry

Thats it .. as i go though i do check the base for mold and if theres any signs i throw it to the side for a more vigorous cleaning

Havnt had a problem in over a 30 cartons so far so im happy with that

 

[Bribie G]

I'll give it a go. One of the disadvantages of bleach is that it is 'clingy' and you have to rinse several times. A no rinse deal sounds fantastic and should cut 20 mins off my bottling. Thanks.

 

[thomfam]

Thanks for the suggestions. It seems I am probably reasonably OK with the 4 ml per litre, possibly it could be a bit strong. I was going to make it up in a watering can (30+mls of bleach to 8 litres of water) and tip the mixture via a funnel into each of my bottles which I will stand in a couple of plastic containers for 30 mins. I would need to refill the watering can another two times to get the whole brew ready so altogether I would use about 100mls of bleach. I picked up a 2 litre container at Woolies today for $1-50.

Time isn't that important to me so if this is a a bit of a slow way to do it isn't a problem for me. It is a heck of a lot cheaper than using Sodium Metabisulphite and more effective too.

 

[np1962]

I'll give it a go. One of the disadvantages of bleach is that it is 'clingy' and you have to rinse several times. A no rinse deal sounds fantastic and should cut 20 mins off my bottling. Thanks.

No worries Bribie,
Have picked up plenty of tips from your posts, is good to be able to give something back.

Nige

 

[seemax]

When it comes to fermenting, kettles, taps, etc I'm quite paranoid about sanitation with bleach/vinegar combo being my preferred method.

For bottles though I clean and rinse with very hot tap water immediately after emptying, then air dry upside down, then store in sealed crates.

I use to sanitise them just prior to filling them, however I got lazy and now don't bother, I've never had any infections or strange flavours (none that I'm aware of anyway) after 25 brews.

 

[puffer_pics]

FYI
Adding the Vinegar (Acetic Acid) to the Bleach (Sodium Hypochlorite) help in the conversion of the Sodium Hypochlorite to the Active Chlorine (Hypochlorous Acid). The optimum pH for this conversion is about pH 6.5 or less but pH 6.5 is the target for sanitising.

 

[pdilley]

I am an strictly always have been a "NO RINSE" "Bleach + Vinegar" brewer. I have *never* had an issue with chlorine smell, nor chlorine taste. To each their own.

My recipe is always etched/written on the sides of my fermenters so I always have my long term memory with me (well one that works.)

10 mL of bleach per 5 L of water. To that add 10 mL of white vinegar.

Soak needs only 2 minutes to properly sanitise.

I usually mix up a big batch in my fermenter and soak everything else inside that, gear, tools, bits and bobs. And it ends up sitting for more than 2 minutes. I also pour it off through my large funnel near the end to sanitise that at the end of the chain.

Even with "No Rinse" I still do out of habit with "hot water". This instantly neutralises any chlorine.

Never had an infection, or sanitisation issue and I mean everything from cradle to grave in my brewing gets this solution treatment... it even goes in my fermentation airlocks. It sanitises and after a day or two goes inert so any suck back means clean sanitised water gets sucked back into the fermenter, not any chemical.


Never had the inkling to even consider a COTS alternative.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete


Edit: I get a dedicated bottle of bleach with no scenting or additions whatsoever dedicated for my brewing tasks.

No Name Brand white vinegar bottle, big as the market has. These two together last me ages.

Bleach and Vinegar are added to the water, not to each other first, basic chemistry safety followed.

 

[daemon]

I use Starsan, it might seem more expensive to buy but you only need 1.5ml per Litre. I've been using it for the last few months are barely used 40ml, the 500ml bottle is going to last for ages It's no-rinse as well and foams up slightly for better surface contact. At the recommended mixtures it's odourless too, makes it slightly more reassuring to use.

I still use bleach when I want to soak fermenters, but mainly after they're clean to help remove some of the odours. I just use no-name nappisan for soaking fermenters, then add any bottles that need a good clean to soak in there as well. 1-2 days later it's just a matter of rinsing and storing, then a quick spray with starsan just before use.

 

[brando]

Do yourself a favour and buy some Starsan (from Ross at Craftbrewer). Then you can worry about something else other than sanitation.

 

[buttersd70]

the bleach/vinegar "no rinse" ratio is actually a specific ratio as give by Charlie Talley (sp?) from 5star chemicals- the maker of starsan. 1oz/5gal + 1oz. (roughly 30mL/19L bleach + 30mL vinegar).

Search the basicbrewing.com radio archives for the specifics.....but long story short, it works out to 1.7mL/L. Although some people would say that any bleach in your beer will turn your foreskin green and make it drop off......scare tactics, or facts??? What does Charlie Talley have to say?? What is the general consensus of those that have used this ratio? What do most American comercial breweries use to sanatise their bottles....(as mentioned by charlie in the interview h34r: ......).

 

[rude]

I picked up a good tip off pint of larger, that you should change youre sanitiser every so often to keep the bugs off guard.
I use hydrogen peroxide but will give the bleach vineager water a go at sometime or star san.

 

[Darren]

My understanding is it activates the chlorine.. Something to do with the acid busting open the chlorine molecules and putting more available chlorine into the mix

Edit: A no rinse solution would be 1.5 ml bleach 1.5 ml vinegar to 1L water. Note: do not mix the bleach and vinegar directly

Why add the vinegar?? Anyone actually tested the advantages of vinegar additions over beach without vinegar??

As a data point, vinegar is made from acetobacter, the very last thing you want in your beer

cheers

Darren

 

[Darren]

Thanks for the suggestions. It seems I am probably reasonably OK with the 4 ml per litre, possibly it could be a bit strong. I was going to make it up in a watering can (30+mls of bleach to 8 litres of water) and tip the mixture via a funnel into each of my bottles which I will stand in a couple of plastic containers for 30 mins. I would need to refill the watering can another two times to get the whole brew ready so altogether I would use about 100mls of bleach. I picked up a 2 litre container at Woolies today for $1-50.

Time isn't that important to me so if this is a a bit of a slow way to do it isn't a problem for me. It is a heck of a lot cheaper than using Sodium Metabisulphite and more effective too.

StarSan is far more expensive than sodium metabisulphate. Bleach (without vinegar) is just as effective.

No need to fill your bottles, 1/4 full and a swirl and tip is all they need.

I have always rinsed even my "trials" of "no-rinse" sanitisers as the did not smell "no-rinse", therefore bleach is the obvious choice )

PS: No I dont own or distribute expensive sanitisers.

cheers

Darren

 

[pdilley]

Why add the vinegar?? Anyone actually tested the advantages of vinegar additions over beach without vinegar??

Chlorine Bleach is a much more effective antimicrobial chemical at an acidic pH value than at the alkaline Ph value at which bleach is manufactured and stored. A small amount of household vinegar is sufficient to lower the pH of bleach to an acidic range. Diluted bleach at an alkaline pH is a relatively poor disinfectant, but acidified diluted bleach will virtually kill anything. (HOCl is about 80 to 200 times more antimicrobial than OCl-)

It also lets you bring down the chlorine levels to where you can not taste nor smell it and still kill and sanitise, hence no-rinse.

Hot water will neutralise chlorine. Hence I still do a hot water rinse even though I shouldn't. Old habits are hard to get rid of.

Biggest bottle of no name generic white vinegar cheap from your local supermarket is all you need. Keep the malty stuff for your fish and chips!