Cane Sugar

[Renzo]

Gday everyone.

Looking at doing an AG saison and was wondering when to actually add cane sugar (recipe calls for it) - in the mash tun or kettle?

 

[Airgead]

Gday everyone.

Looking at doing an AG saison and was wondering when to actually add cane sugar (recipe calls for it) - in the mash tun or kettle?

Kettle. Sugar doesn't need a mash to convert and adding it to the mash you run the risk of some of it getting left behind when you sparge. Much easier to dump it in the kettle towards the end of the boil.

Cheers
Dave

 

[praxis178]

Gday everyone.

Looking at doing an AG saison and was wondering when to actually add cane sugar (recipe calls for it) - in the mash tun or kettle?

Kettle, as in the MT you will loose some while sparging, and it really doesn't require the attention of the enzymes etc. Oh yeah add it late in the boil (~15mins before flame out?), less chance of caramelizing it that way, but should still leave it hot long enough to invert it some.

 

[MHB]

Quite a few sugar additions are made 2-3 days into the ferment, higher gravity slows the yeast down, by letting it get a good kick off, then adding the sugar you should get all the benefits without the risk of a sugar twang.

MHB

 

[Renzo]

Quite a few sugar additions are made 2-3 days into the ferment, higher gravity slows the yeast down, by letting it get a good kick off, then adding the sugar you should get all the benefits without the risk of a sugar twang.

MHB

Does that mean there's a risk of sugar twang by adding to kettle rather than fermenter?

 

[Nick JD]

Quite a few sugar additions are made 2-3 days into the ferment, higher gravity slows the yeast down, by letting it get a good kick off, then adding the sugar you should get all the benefits without the risk of a sugar twang.

MHB

What does sugar twang taste like? What does it consist of?

 

[Sammus]

another vote for adding later in during fermentation. Saison should be dry, and incrementally feeding the yeast (something incredibly easy to do with sugar additions...) is going to be best for that.

 

[Renzo]

another vote for adding later in during fermentation. Saison should be dry, and incrementally feeding the yeast (something incredibly easy to do with sugar additions...) is going to be best for that.

OK, recipe calls for 4.76Kg Pils malt, 340gm wheat malt, and 340gm Munich and 57gm cara and 450gm CANE SUGAR. If I was to add to fermenter, how much increments and when (i.e. after 3 days etc)

 

[under]

To be honest I would be adding either - In the last 15 mins of the boil, and giving it a really good stir, or into the fermenter with the cooled wort. Then pitch the yeast.

Sugar twang?


AHB wives tale

 

[boybrewer]

I brewed a Belgian Dark Strong which had sugar in it to bring up the ABV and dry it out . I added 750gm of sugar to the fermentation after 3 days at 250gm at a time over a period of 9 days . Hope this helps .

 

[manticle]

What does sugar twang taste like? What does it consist of?

Not sure if it's the sugar twang MHB speaks of but I have noticed far too much hot alcohol in a high gravity brew even when I've dumped the lot in after primary is done. Adding in stages after primary seems to have removed this tendency.

 

[praxis178]

Not sure if it's the sugar twang MHB speaks of but I have noticed far too much hot alcohol in a high gravity brew even when I've dumped the lot in after primary is done. Adding in stages after primary seems to have removed this tendency.

That would be fusil (sp?) alcohols from stressing the yeast, AKA the real hang-over juice. If you were to distill that brew the fusils would be in the last fraction to come over before the watery bit, they don't smell nice and taste even worse! (I worked at McWilliam's in Robinvale helping out with the big still they have (had?) there for a while)

 

[hoohaaman]

You sure will get sugar twang if added to the kettle and fermented at the warm temps of a saison.

Yeast will eat the simple sugars first(table sugar), get lazy when finished and then not eat the maltose properly.Adding sugar to the fermenter incrementally avoids this,leads to a drier beer with out hot alcohol fusels and other undesirables.

As advised above,if was making this beer I would be adding after krausen subsides.

 

[MHB]

MHB

 

[Thirsty Boy]

What does sugar twang taste like? What does it consist of?

Its the twangy taste you can get if you use too much sugar... it consists of twang molecules

 

[Screwtop]

Its the twangy taste you can get if you use too much sugar... it consists of twang molecules

There are also Kit Twang Esters ....... we don't want to confuse readers TB, the two are entirely different.

 

[Nick JD]

Can anyone point me to some literature that says yeast make more fusels when they are fed sucrose?

I think the sugar twang is ethanol, without the corresponding unfermented sugaz to balance it.

If you triple your ingredients (including sucrose) you don't get twang.

 

[manticle]

Can anyone point me to some literature that says yeast make more fusels when they are fed sucrose?

I think the sugar twang is ethanol, without the corresponding unfermented sugaz to balance it.

If you triple your ingredients (including sucrose) you don't get twang.

I'm only going on my experiences with adding 600-1000g candi in after primary in one lump (hot alcohol flavour in resulting brew) and adding in 200g lots over several days (no hot alc in resulting brew). Similar OGs, similar FGs, similar ingredients, same yeasts.

 

[Screwtop]

Can anyone point me to some literature that says yeast make more fusels when they are fed sucrose?

I think the sugar twang is ethanol, without the corresponding unfermented sugaz to balance it.

If you triple your ingredients (including sucrose) you don't get twang.

Did the googling for you.

Troubleshooting Off Flavors in Beer

Analysis of Flavor

ALCOHOLIC

CHARACTERISTICS: Both an aroma and a mouth-feel. A hot, spicy flavor detected by the nose as a vinous aroma and by the tongue by a warming sensation in the middle of the tongue. A warming, prickling sensation in the mouth and throat.

CHEMISTRY: The end product from the conversion of glucose into carbon dioxide and ethyl alcohol. Other, higher alcohols can also be present. These are called fusel oils and contribute to vinous aromas and tastes.

CAUSES: A normal reaction desired in beer, alcohol content is a function of the amount of fermentable sugars in the wort, the fermentation temperature, and the yeast strain.

Fusel oil production will be a function of the yeast strain used and the fermentation temperature (higher temperatures give more fusel oils).

PROCESS: Amount and types of fermentables in wort determine content; yeast strain and attenuation characteristics; fermentation temperature determines fusel oil characteristic.

REDUCTION: The amount of alcohol and fusel alcohols should be appropriate for the beer style. Control alcohol by wort start gravity and wort content (avoid large amounts of sugars). Wort should attenuate to about 1/4 of starting gravity.

Control fusel oils by using colder fermentation temperatures.

So: Type of fermentables, Amount of fermentables and Fermentation Temp and Avoid large amounts os sugars (sucrose).

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Higher alcohols are produced as part of the pentose phosphate pathway of glucose catabolism - they are largely derived as byproduct of the process of yeast synthesising amino acids.

They do this by breaking down and re-building wort amino acids. The yeast assimilates the wort amino acids and a transamination system strips the amino group and creates a pool of oxo-acids. Required amino acids are re-built by the yeast using these as raw material. Normally yeast has a feedback control system to ensure that it only produces enough alpha-keto-acid (oxo-acids) to synthesise the required amount of amino acids.... but, as the level of assimilable amino acid in the wort drops, the feedback system breaks down and the yeast over produces keto/oxo acids in an attempt to ensure enough amino acids. When it turns out that there isn't enough nitrogen to actually make the amino acids.. the yeast is left with an excess of oxo/keto acids - which it does not tolerate well. So it reduces the keto acids via an aldehyde to their corresponding higher alcohol. By products of the production of keto acids also include things like 2,3 butanedione (diacetyl) 2,3 pentanedione, trans-2-nonenol (carbonyls) all of which are flavour active.

And the classic way to give yourself a nitrogen and thus amino acid deficiency in wort... is to use too much nitrogen deficient adjunct, like sugar.

And there are other things like fatty acids spilling out of the yeast cell due to high glycolytic flux, aldehydes as byproducts of a couple of different pathways and even more higher alcohols produced directly from sugar metabolism. Many of these are increased as growth rate increases and therefore glycolytic flux. And yeast does love to eat the simple sugars... gets em racing along at a great rate of knots.

Differnent parts of this are more likely to happen at different points in fermentation as the balance of nutrients and byproducts in the wort changes. So when you add things like simple sugars and how much of them you add, can profoundly effect beer flavour.

See - whichever decent brewing text you prefer.. they all have the same stuff. Don't ask me for the proper chemistry, I don't have the understanding required - I only have the arm waving version and a mental picture of the pathways and the inputs and outputs.

Enough? or do you want more... I have more, but then again so do you.. you have a good brewing text book, its all in there if you read it and and draw the appropriate conclusions.

TB