Candi Sugar vs Syrup

[Parks]

Thanks, but you haven't told me the answer.

Here's your question again with your added parameters:

1L of pure water with 500g of pure, dry sucrose dissolved in it will have a volume of _______.

I look forward to the answer since you know how to calculate it.

I don't know nor care at this point. I know, for a fact, that it is greater than 1L. I have, on many, many, occasions added sugar to water and any amount of searching will tell you the same thing.

 

[Nick JD]

I don't know nor care at this point. I know, for a fact, that it is greater than 1L. I have, on many, many, occasions added sugar to water and any amount of searching will tell you the same thing.

Oh.

What about this question then:

What will the be the total solution volume if I add 100ml of water to 100ml of pure ethanol?

Also, if anyone can answer the above question:

1L of pure water with 500g of pure, dry sucrose dissolved in it will have a volume of _______.

...that'd be great. It's an interesting thing from a homebrewer's POV.

 

[stakka82]

FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!

Yeah vol will definitely be greater than 1 litre, no idea by how much though, and also don't care.

 

[Parks]

What will the be the total solution volume if I add 100ml of water to 100ml of pure ethanol?

Very close to, but not quite 200ml.

1L of pure water with 500g of pure, dry sucrose dissolved in it will have a volume of _______.

...that'd be great. It's an interesting thing from a homebrewer's POV.

In reality I think the most important thing is if you want a concentration of 500g to 1L to use water to fill up to the 1L and not add 1L to sugar.

 

[GalBrew]

Ok then,
I just got up from my desk and disolved 30g of lab grade sucrose into 100ml of distilled water and mixed it up on a stirplate. The volume of the resultant solution was (as far as my 250ml measuring cylinder could tell) was 109ml......

.......(waits for applause)...... :super:

 

[Nick JD]

 

[Nick JD]

Ok then,
I just got up from my desk and disolved 30g of lab grade sucrose into 100ml of distilled water and mixed it up on a stirplate. The volume of the resultant solution was (as far as my 250ml measuring cylinder could tell) was 109ml......

.......(waits for applause)...... :super:

Cool. So 300g of sugar in 1L of water will have a volume of 1090ml?

Can you do 50g?

And make us all some coffee?

 

[GalBrew]

I assume so, I would imagine the relationship is linear with regards to the volume occupied by a unit of sucrose. I don't know how to calculate the final volume of solutions (all we really care about is molarity, and we make the solution up to a desired volume rather than adding the desired volume), I just know this from experience.

I would have done a larger volume, but we didn't have enough sucrose left in the bottle.

 

[Nick JD]

I learned that you can only get 211g of sugar in 100g of water.

 

[Parks]

1L of water with 500g of sugar dissolved in it will have a volume of _______.

Apologies for my stupidity in probably not reading this correctly.

I read this as you saying "add 500g to 1L of water" when you could easy actually and probably have meant exactly what I later said.

As you were.

Answer - 1L.
:blink:

 

[Nick JD]

And that on the peak of the Mount Stupid there's very little standing room.

 

[Nick JD]

Apologies for my stupidity in probably not reading this correctly.

I read this as you saying "add 500g to 1L of water" when you could easy actually and probably have meant exactly what I later said.

As you were.

Answer - 1L.
:blink:

It's more than 1L.

I wanted to know by how much.

 

[GalBrew]

If you heat the water, you will be able to get a bit more in as the saturation point will increase with temp. Here is a saturation point graph I found:

 

[Parks]

It's more than 1L.

I wanted to know by how much.

Not if you asked how much volume in a Litre of water which already had 500g of sugar dissolved in it

 

[Nick JD]

Not if you asked how much volume in a Litre of water which already had 500g of sugar dissolved in it

 

[stakka82]

Ripped off the net but vaguely remember this from high school chem:

as the crystal structure of the sugar breaks down (dissolves), the individual sugar molecules - which are still as they were or your coffee would not taste sweeter - can fit in between (or vice-versa) the water molecules so that they do not take up as much space in the solution as they did in their crystal (solid) form. Or, as said above: volume is more than the solvent alone, but less than adding the volume of solute and solvent together with no reference to dissolving. For sugar and water, no combination should result in no volume change or a perfectly equivalent volume change.

 

[Edak]

At what temperature? I just thought I would throw in another variable....

Nick, why so rude today?

 

[Nick JD]

Nick, why so rude today?

Today?

 

[Edak]

Yeah, the day after yesterday and before tomorrow..

 

[emnpaul]

Not sure if you're still interested in the answer but based on GalBrew's experiment and the fairly unscientific assumption that the relationship is linear up to the threshold of insolubility one gram of sugar dissolved in water will add 0.3ml to the volume of said solution. So:

1L of pure water with 500g of pure, dry sucrose dissolved in it will have a volume of 1150ml.

That is just an assumption though. It would be much better to have a range of accurate measurements and be able to interpolate the data to give an answer rather than assume and extrapolate. But ballpark, 1150ml.

Edit: I did a bit more digging and came up with this: http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110618005518AA2Pl1D

Running a few calculations on the data contained in that link, increase in volume divided by mass of added sucrose, yields an increase in volume of 0.625ml/g and 0.635ml/g for the two samples. Given that the samples span a reasonable range of densities it can be inferred that the increase in volume is linear up to or at least until nearing the point of solubility and that GalBrew's measurements further complicate the answer given that distilled water and laboratory grade sucrose was used by GalBrew and we don't know whether the experiment on Yahoo Answers used tap water and/or table sugar.

The actual answer, in the home brewing environment may be closer to 1315ml.

 

[iralosavic]

Holy **** guys. So do we have actually have a conclusion on calculating the equivalent volumes when substituting dry for liquid or vice versa?

 

[Edak]

no, basically you have to estimate because there are too many unknowns.

take the advice given in this thread (ie. volume does not equal mass, 500ml of syrup probably weighs 600-700g, etc) and make up your own mind.

 

[felten]

Is the OP still even reading this? his last post was #7...

 

[iralosavic]

So 375g dry = 250ml. Or was it 500ml? Haha

 

[emnpaul]

no, basically you have to estimate because there are too many unknowns.

take the advice given in this thread (ie. volume does not equal mass, 500ml of syrup probably weighs 600-700g, etc) and make up your own mind.

That's my conclusion.

 

[emnpaul]

I think I have the answer and I'm a bit annoyed with myself for not thinking of this earlier.

If we know the strength of the sugar solution in degrees brix (Bx) then we know what the solution is as a percentage weight for weight.(%W/W) I.e. if the solution was 10Bx it would be 10 grams of sucrose in 100ml of water, therefore 10% W/W. Once we know %W/W we're half way there.

Hypothetically, if you had 1kg of candy syrup at 50Bx it would consist of 500g (therefore 500ml) water and 500g sucrose, but not occupy a volume of 1 litre. Can you see where I'm going with this? The key is weight.

You can calculate the dry (approx. 100%) sugar weight to wet conversion if you know the Bx using this formula:

Mw = Md/ww

Where: Mw = Mass of wet ingredient needed in kg
Md = Mass of dry ingredient in recipe, desired or whatever in kg
ww= % of sucrose in solution as weight

Eg: recipe for Belgian piswater calls for 375g candy sugar but you can only get/have syrup at 78Bx.
Applying formua: Mw = Md/ww
= 0.375/0.78
= 0.481kg syrup or 481grams

The key word is grams. Place a cup on your scales, tare them and then weigh out 481 grams of syrup.

Going the other way (wet to dry) is a bit more complicated. You could use this formula:
Md = Mw X ww
= 0.481 X 0.78
= 275 grams dry sugar

Obviously you'd need to know the Bx of the candy sugar in the recipe or be able to take an educated guess and the recipe would need to show the weight of syrup in grams which is unlikely. In that case what you could do is make up a solution to the desired Bx, probably about 78Bx or 78%w/w and then add that in. Just be sure if making up 500ml or whatever to add your sugar to a smaller amount of water and dissolve, then add water up to your final amount, as indicated by GalBrew earlier in this thread.

Can't get 78g of sugar to dissolve in 22ml of water? Make it up to 39Bx and add twice as much.

If you need to convert to Bx from SG you can use this calculator: http://www.brewersfriend.com/brix-converter/

 

[manticle]

Anyone know why the dark syrups seem to be unavailable at the moment? At least CB and GG seem to be out of stock. Got a Belgian dark Strong that needs dosing with the good stuff.

 

[Yob]

ESB sponsors site seems to have some mate

 

[iralosavic]

From the horse's mouth - there is a single supplier and they only bring in limited* stocks. As for how true/accurate this is, I can only speculate, although it does seem to be the case from my observations. *by limited I mean the quantity supply is inferior to the demand.

 

[Whiteferret]

Anyone know why the dark syrups seem to be unavailable at the moment? At least CB and GG seem to be out of stock. Got a Belgian dark Strong that needs dosing with the good stuff.

Just make your own if your desperate manticle :icon_cheers: