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Candi Sugar vs Syrup

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Nick JD

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And that on the peak of the Mount Stupid there's very little standing room.
 

Nick JD

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Parks said:
Apologies for my stupidity in probably not reading this correctly.

I read this as you saying "add 500g to 1L of water" when you could easy actually and probably have meant exactly what I later said.

As you were.

Answer - 1L.
:blink:
It's more than 1L.

I wanted to know by how much.
 

GalBrew

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If you heat the water, you will be able to get a bit more in as the saturation point will increase with temp. Here is a saturation point graph I found:

 

Parks

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Nick JD said:
It's more than 1L.

I wanted to know by how much.
Not if you asked how much volume in a Litre of water which already had 500g of sugar dissolved in it ;)
 

Nick JD

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Parks said:
Not if you asked how much volume in a Litre of water which already had 500g of sugar dissolved in it ;)
:D
 

stakka82

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Ripped off the net but vaguely remember this from high school chem:

as the crystal structure of the sugar breaks down (dissolves), the individual sugar molecules - which are still as they were or your coffee would not taste sweeter - can fit in between (or vice-versa) the water molecules so that they do not take up as much space in the solution as they did in their crystal (solid) form. Or, as said above: volume is more than the solvent alone, but less than adding the volume of solute and solvent together with no reference to dissolving. For sugar and water, no combination should result in no volume change or a perfectly equivalent volume change.
 

Edak

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At what temperature? I just thought I would throw in another variable....

Nick, why so rude today?
 

emnpaul

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Not sure if you're still interested in the answer but based on GalBrew's experiment and the fairly unscientific assumption that the relationship is linear up to the threshold of insolubility one gram of sugar dissolved in water will add 0.3ml to the volume of said solution. So:
Nick JD said:
1L of pure water with 500g of pure, dry sucrose dissolved in it will have a volume of 1150ml.
That is just an assumption though. It would be much better to have a range of accurate measurements and be able to interpolate the data to give an answer rather than assume and extrapolate. But ballpark, 1150ml.

Edit: I did a bit more digging and came up with this: http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110618005518AA2Pl1D

Running a few calculations on the data contained in that link, increase in volume divided by mass of added sucrose, yields an increase in volume of 0.625ml/g and 0.635ml/g for the two samples. Given that the samples span a reasonable range of densities it can be inferred that the increase in volume is linear up to or at least until nearing the point of solubility and that GalBrew's measurements further complicate the answer given that distilled water and laboratory grade sucrose was used by GalBrew and we don't know whether the experiment on Yahoo Answers used tap water and/or table sugar.

The actual answer, in the home brewing environment may be closer to 1315ml.
 

iralosavic

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Holy shit guys. So do we have actually have a conclusion on calculating the equivalent volumes when substituting dry for liquid or vice versa?
 

Edak

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no, basically you have to estimate because there are too many unknowns.

take the advice given in this thread (ie. volume does not equal mass, 500ml of syrup probably weighs 600-700g, etc) and make up your own mind.
 

felten

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Is the OP still even reading this? his last post was #7...
 

emnpaul

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Edak said:
no, basically you have to estimate because there are too many unknowns.

take the advice given in this thread (ie. volume does not equal mass, 500ml of syrup probably weighs 600-700g, etc) and make up your own mind.
That's my conclusion.
 

emnpaul

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I think I have the answer and I'm a bit annoyed with myself for not thinking of this earlier.

If we know the strength of the sugar solution in degrees brix (Bx) then we know what the solution is as a percentage weight for weight.(%W/W) I.e. if the solution was 10Bx it would be 10 grams of sucrose in 100ml of water, therefore 10% W/W. Once we know %W/W we're half way there.

Hypothetically, if you had 1kg of candy syrup at 50Bx it would consist of 500g (therefore 500ml) water and 500g sucrose, but not occupy a volume of 1 litre. Can you see where I'm going with this? The key is weight.

You can calculate the dry (approx. 100%) sugar weight to wet conversion if you know the Bx using this formula:

Mw = Md/ww

Where: Mw = Mass of wet ingredient needed in kg
Md = Mass of dry ingredient in recipe, desired or whatever in kg
ww= % of sucrose in solution as weight

Eg: recipe for Belgian piswater calls for 375g candy sugar but you can only get/have syrup at 78Bx.
Applying formua: Mw = Md/ww
= 0.375/0.78
= 0.481kg syrup or 481grams

The key word is grams. Place a cup on your scales, tare them and then weigh out 481 grams of syrup.

Going the other way (wet to dry) is a bit more complicated. You could use this formula:
Md = Mw X ww
= 0.481 X 0.78
= 275 grams dry sugar

Obviously you'd need to know the Bx of the candy sugar in the recipe or be able to take an educated guess and the recipe would need to show the weight of syrup in grams which is unlikely. In that case what you could do is make up a solution to the desired Bx, probably about 78Bx or 78%w/w and then add that in. Just be sure if making up 500ml or whatever to add your sugar to a smaller amount of water and dissolve, then add water up to your final amount, as indicated by GalBrew earlier in this thread.

Can't get 78g of sugar to dissolve in 22ml of water? Make it up to 39Bx and add twice as much.

If you need to convert to Bx from SG you can use this calculator: http://www.brewersfriend.com/brix-converter/
 

manticle

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Anyone know why the dark syrups seem to be unavailable at the moment? At least CB and GG seem to be out of stock. Got a Belgian dark Strong that needs dosing with the good stuff.
 

iralosavic

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From the horse's mouth - there is a single supplier and they only bring in limited* stocks. As for how true/accurate this is, I can only speculate, although it does seem to be the case from my observations. *by limited I mean the quantity supply is inferior to the demand.
 

Whiteferret

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manticle said:
Anyone know why the dark syrups seem to be unavailable at the moment? At least CB and GG seem to be out of stock. Got a Belgian dark Strong that needs dosing with the good stuff.
Just make your own if your desperate manticle :icon_cheers:
 
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