Candi Sugar vs Syrup
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GalBrew
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If you heat the water, you will be able to get a bit more in as the saturation point will increase with temp. Here is a saturation point graph I found:
stakka82
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Ripped off the net but vaguely remember this from high school chem:
as the crystal structure of the sugar breaks down (dissolves), the individual sugar molecules - which are still as they were or your coffee would not taste sweeter - can fit in between (or vice-versa) the water molecules so that they do not take up as much space in the solution as they did in their crystal (solid) form. Or, as said above: volume is more than the solvent alone, but less than adding the volume of solute and solvent together with no reference to dissolving. For sugar and water, no combination should result in no volume change or a perfectly equivalent volume change.
as the crystal structure of the sugar breaks down (dissolves), the individual sugar molecules - which are still as they were or your coffee would not taste sweeter - can fit in between (or vice-versa) the water molecules so that they do not take up as much space in the solution as they did in their crystal (solid) form. Or, as said above: volume is more than the solvent alone, but less than adding the volume of solute and solvent together with no reference to dissolving. For sugar and water, no combination should result in no volume change or a perfectly equivalent volume change.
Edak
BrauShnizzleMyNizzle
At what temperature? I just thought I would throw in another variable....
Nick, why so rude today?
Nick, why so rude today?
Edak
BrauShnizzleMyNizzle
Yeah, the day after yesterday and before tomorrow..
emnpaul
Well-Known Member
Not sure if you're still interested in the answer but based on GalBrew's experiment and the fairly unscientific assumption that the relationship is linear up to the threshold of insolubility one gram of sugar dissolved in water will add 0.3ml to the volume of said solution. So:
Edit: I did a bit more digging and came up with this: http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110618005518AA2Pl1D
Running a few calculations on the data contained in that link, increase in volume divided by mass of added sucrose, yields an increase in volume of 0.625ml/g and 0.635ml/g for the two samples. Given that the samples span a reasonable range of densities it can be inferred that the increase in volume is linear up to or at least until nearing the point of solubility and that GalBrew's measurements further complicate the answer given that distilled water and laboratory grade sucrose was used by GalBrew and we don't know whether the experiment on Yahoo Answers used tap water and/or table sugar.
The actual answer, in the home brewing environment may be closer to 1315ml.
That is just an assumption though. It would be much better to have a range of accurate measurements and be able to interpolate the data to give an answer rather than assume and extrapolate. But ballpark, 1150ml.Nick JD said:
Edit: I did a bit more digging and came up with this: http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110618005518AA2Pl1D
Running a few calculations on the data contained in that link, increase in volume divided by mass of added sucrose, yields an increase in volume of 0.625ml/g and 0.635ml/g for the two samples. Given that the samples span a reasonable range of densities it can be inferred that the increase in volume is linear up to or at least until nearing the point of solubility and that GalBrew's measurements further complicate the answer given that distilled water and laboratory grade sucrose was used by GalBrew and we don't know whether the experiment on Yahoo Answers used tap water and/or table sugar.
The actual answer, in the home brewing environment may be closer to 1315ml.
iralosavic
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Holy **** guys. So do we have actually have a conclusion on calculating the equivalent volumes when substituting dry for liquid or vice versa?
Edak
BrauShnizzleMyNizzle
no, basically you have to estimate because there are too many unknowns.
take the advice given in this thread (ie. volume does not equal mass, 500ml of syrup probably weighs 600-700g, etc) and make up your own mind.
take the advice given in this thread (ie. volume does not equal mass, 500ml of syrup probably weighs 600-700g, etc) and make up your own mind.
iralosavic
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So 375g dry = 250ml. Or was it 500ml? Haha
emnpaul
Well-Known Member
That's my conclusion.Edak said:
emnpaul
Well-Known Member
I think I have the answer and I'm a bit annoyed with myself for not thinking of this earlier.
If we know the strength of the sugar solution in degrees brix (Bx) then we know what the solution is as a percentage weight for weight.(%W/W) I.e. if the solution was 10Bx it would be 10 grams of sucrose in 100ml of water, therefore 10% W/W. Once we know %W/W we're half way there.
Hypothetically, if you had 1kg of candy syrup at 50Bx it would consist of 500g (therefore 500ml) water and 500g sucrose, but not occupy a volume of 1 litre. Can you see where I'm going with this? The key is weight.
You can calculate the dry (approx. 100%) sugar weight to wet conversion if you know the Bx using this formula:
Mw = Md/ww
Where: Mw = Mass of wet ingredient needed in kg
Md = Mass of dry ingredient in recipe, desired or whatever in kg
ww= % of sucrose in solution as weight
Eg: recipe for Belgian piswater calls for 375g candy sugar but you can only get/have syrup at 78Bx.
Applying formua: Mw = Md/ww
= 0.375/0.78
= 0.481kg syrup or 481grams
The key word is grams. Place a cup on your scales, tare them and then weigh out 481 grams of syrup.
Going the other way (wet to dry) is a bit more complicated. You could use this formula:
Md = Mw X ww
= 0.481 X 0.78
= 275 grams dry sugar
Obviously you'd need to know the Bx of the candy sugar in the recipe or be able to take an educated guess and the recipe would need to show the weight of syrup in grams which is unlikely. In that case what you could do is make up a solution to the desired Bx, probably about 78Bx or 78%w/w and then add that in. Just be sure if making up 500ml or whatever to add your sugar to a smaller amount of water and dissolve, then add water up to your final amount, as indicated by GalBrew earlier in this thread.
Can't get 78g of sugar to dissolve in 22ml of water? Make it up to 39Bx and add twice as much.
If you need to convert to Bx from SG you can use this calculator: http://www.brewersfriend.com/brix-converter/
If we know the strength of the sugar solution in degrees brix (Bx) then we know what the solution is as a percentage weight for weight.(%W/W) I.e. if the solution was 10Bx it would be 10 grams of sucrose in 100ml of water, therefore 10% W/W. Once we know %W/W we're half way there.
Hypothetically, if you had 1kg of candy syrup at 50Bx it would consist of 500g (therefore 500ml) water and 500g sucrose, but not occupy a volume of 1 litre. Can you see where I'm going with this? The key is weight.
You can calculate the dry (approx. 100%) sugar weight to wet conversion if you know the Bx using this formula:
Mw = Md/ww
Where: Mw = Mass of wet ingredient needed in kg
Md = Mass of dry ingredient in recipe, desired or whatever in kg
ww= % of sucrose in solution as weight
Eg: recipe for Belgian piswater calls for 375g candy sugar but you can only get/have syrup at 78Bx.
Applying formua: Mw = Md/ww
= 0.375/0.78
= 0.481kg syrup or 481grams
The key word is grams. Place a cup on your scales, tare them and then weigh out 481 grams of syrup.
Going the other way (wet to dry) is a bit more complicated. You could use this formula:
Md = Mw X ww
= 0.481 X 0.78
= 275 grams dry sugar
Obviously you'd need to know the Bx of the candy sugar in the recipe or be able to take an educated guess and the recipe would need to show the weight of syrup in grams which is unlikely. In that case what you could do is make up a solution to the desired Bx, probably about 78Bx or 78%w/w and then add that in. Just be sure if making up 500ml or whatever to add your sugar to a smaller amount of water and dissolve, then add water up to your final amount, as indicated by GalBrew earlier in this thread.
Can't get 78g of sugar to dissolve in 22ml of water? Make it up to 39Bx and add twice as much.
If you need to convert to Bx from SG you can use this calculator: http://www.brewersfriend.com/brix-converter/
manticle
Standing up for the Aussie Bottler
Anyone know why the dark syrups seem to be unavailable at the moment? At least CB and GG seem to be out of stock. Got a Belgian dark Strong that needs dosing with the good stuff.
Yob
Hop to it
ESB sponsors site seems to have some mate
iralosavic
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From the horse's mouth - there is a single supplier and they only bring in limited* stocks. As for how true/accurate this is, I can only speculate, although it does seem to be the case from my observations. *by limited I mean the quantity supply is inferior to the demand.
Whiteferret
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