Brew In A Bucket Why Not Indeed

[Fat Bastard]

I've been following this thread with a fair bit of interest.

I'm looking at modifying the BIAB system to suit my own requirements. I brew in a very small kitchen in a small flat. I don't have the space to go to a 3V system, and hoisting a bag from a full kettle isn't impossible.

Last brew I did, I drained the kettle into a big bucket, sparged the grain with 5 litres of water set aside in a small esky, gave the grain a good pressing with a potato masher (I have a very sturdy false bottom), pulled the bag out, and returned the wort to the kettle for the boil.

The sparge step didn;t work too well as the water preferred to run around the grain rather than through it. From the other thread on this topic, Bribie (or someone) had the idea of making a bag with a Swiss Voile Bottom, and heavy sides to stop this happening. I'm going to sew up a bag similar with a voile bottom and cotton duck sides. With the aid of a pump (or for the first few tries, a jug) I should be able to recirculate and do stepped mashes, and the sparge should be much more effective.

Any thoughts on this 1.5V/Boil in a Flexible Bucket system? Anyone tried it before? Am I being impertinant by trying to meddle with proven systems after only 2 AG brews?

 

[yardy]

So I read this as it was all happening but you did lots of experiments, a bit of this a bit of that.
Now that your happy and finished would you mind spelling out the whole definitive Bribie bucket urn method.

+1

 

[pk.sax]

+1

Bribie kicked his bag and landed his foot in a bucket.

PS: for a more flash version of bribie's current incarnation. Didn't hatch do a fancy malt pipe with a solid walled steel pipe with perforated bottom. He even had fancy handles welded to it. Long time. From memory, it was a long long post.

 

[kymba]

I've been following this thread with a fair bit of interest.

I'm looking at modifying the BIAB system to suit my own requirements. I brew in a very small kitchen in a small flat. I don't have the space to go to a 3V system, and hoisting a bag from a full kettle isn't impossible.

Last brew I did, I drained the kettle into a big bucket, sparged the grain with 5 litres of water set aside in a small esky, gave the grain a good pressing with a potato masher (I have a very sturdy false bottom), pulled the bag out, and returned the wort to the kettle for the boil.

The sparge step didn;t work too well as the water preferred to run around the grain rather than through it. From the other thread on this topic, Bribie (or someone) had the idea of making a bag with a Swiss Voile Bottom, and heavy sides to stop this happening. I'm going to sew up a bag similar with a voile bottom and cotton duck sides. With the aid of a pump (or for the first few tries, a jug) I should be able to recirculate and do stepped mashes, and the sparge should be much more effective.

Any thoughts on this 1.5V/Boil in a Flexible Bucket system? Anyone tried it before? Am I being impertinant by trying to meddle with proven systems after only 2 AG brews?

FB if you have the spare voile laying around try 2 or 3 layers for the sides and a single layer for the bottom

last weekend i was having a cnt of a time recirculating with my old 2 layer bag. i had to get out the new bag mid mash and do a space dock into another bucket lined with my single layer bag. once that was sorted it was unstoppable

 

[Thirsty Boy]

What benefit does a flexible bag have over a bucket with a mesh bottom? Other than sticking with convention.

If you count a skyhook / pully system, or the bucket you dump your bag into, or the door knock you tie your bag to for draining as part of your BIAB system (which you should to be fair), and compare it to using a bucket to hold the grain, I think you get a fairer comparison.

Anyway I'm over BIAB, bags are a pain in the arse, and I'm testing out this bucket method this weekend so I guess I'll know what I prefer soon enough.

Well, if you're talking about the things mentioned in this thread generally - then its entirely subjective. I've brewed on systems that cover pretty much all of the alternatives that have been suggested so far, and IMO the best, simplest and most effective of those systems are either simple no sparge bag systems, or simple traditional multi vessel systems. The others tend to be just mish mash jobs that often end up combining the worst features of the systems their bits have been scavenged from.

However, the bucket in bucket/urn system is entirely workable and in various formats was proved to be years ago, so i have no critisism at all if people decide thats the way they'd like to go. i personally didn't like using one and think there are better solutions, but thats differrent to me thinking its an inherrently bad idea.

However, if you look at the post i was actually responding to in the post you quoted - you'll note that the poster in question wanted to use their existing keggle, had a narrow opening in the top of it and noticed themselves that using a bucket that would fit, would also mean that their grain would be constrained in a small volume, seperated from the majority of the liquid. And in my experience that would be a bad idea that can lead to really quite bad efficiency and issues with conversion. Thus my opinion that he would be better off with a 2V system. Also, the only reason they quoted for moving away from bag to "bucket" was to improve beer clarity, which it wouldn't.

specific rather than general critisism

 

[MarkBastard]

Fair enough mate, but I'm interested in your pure 'real bag' vs 'bucket with mesh bottom' opinion.

I find BIAB in its 'purist form' sounds good on paper only. In reality it's almost never a one vessel system unless you're cheating and under presenting the gear you use just to make out like BIAB is awesome.

What issues did you have with a bucket in urn setup? A lot of people are negative about it but I don't think anyone has really said why yet. I'm planning on giving it a go with an open mind and if it doesn't work out for me I'll let people know, but if there are some hidden issues with it why can't people state them to save me even giving it a go?

 

[Bribie G]

Aha on re reading, I see where the confusion lies for Yardy Et Al, a lot of the photos ended up on Nala's thread where he is doing something similar.
So putting it all together;

BIU (bucket in urn) is basically BIAB with a "solid" bag.
The idea is that the grain is allowed to form a proper grain bed so the wort runs through the bed, not whooshing out of the sides of the bag.

I made the "solid bag" out of a Masters-brand 20L pail drilled at the bottom and fitted with a woolies $8 strainer hoofed into shape then wrapped in a hop bag for an extra fine "strain" and secured with some silicone hose. The latter two I already have, and they get used for their original purposes when not part of the BIU setup.

So mashing etc is identical to BIAB, following which the bucket can be gradually raised using a block and tackle and wort recirculated through the grain bed to produce a clearer wort than straight BIAB.

With big beers a wee sparge may also be performed if desired. At the end, the bucket is removed completely and the grain tipped out and the components retrieved. BIU has done its work.

Advantages: similar entry cost to BIAB
Easier to handle, more controllable
Easy cleanup with no bag to wash (I just rinse the hopsock and use immediately as a ..... hopsock )
Less loss to trub so $$$ savings over the brewing year

Another finding I haven't yet posted AFAIK, the main mash has NO PERCEPTIBLE temp drop during mashing as we have a double walled system happening here. In fact with a bit of judicious urn use the outer jacket of wort can be initialised at a degree or more warmer than the inner mash, so a 1.5 hour mash with no temp drop should be achievable. Of course the system is lagged as I did with BIAB

 

[Fat Bastard]

FB if you have the spare voile laying around try 2 or 3 layers for the sides and a single layer for the bottom

last weekend i was having a cnt of a time recirculating with my old 2 layer bag. i had to get out the new bag mid mash and do a space dock into another bucket lined with my single layer bag. once that was sorted it was unstoppable

Bit late now!

"collapsable bucket"

We'll see how it goes tomorrow. That cotton duck is virtually impervious to water once it's wet. I once grabbed a square of it to filter some chicken stock I made and it took nearly 2 hours for 6 litres to get through it! Works well for puddings and boiled sausages though. I'm hoping it does what I want for mashing too!

Thinking about holding 7 litres back from the strike water for mashing, sparging and giving it a good press with a potato masher. Squeezing the bag shouldn't be neccesary.

 

[Goofinder]

The way I see it is the fundamental difference between 2/3V and BIAB is that in 2/3V you remove the wort from the mash (and capture it in another vessel), and in BIAB you remove the grain from the mash (leaving the wort behind).

Using a bucket/solid sided bag doesn't really change much, and indeed a bucket with holes can be used in a 2/3V system (where the wort is removed from the mash).

There is nothing revolutionary here, using a bucket is just an evolution of the 'bag' designed to overcome problems with handling a dripping bag full of 65C grain. That's not to say that it's not a good idea, and as is the case with most developments they are blindingly obvious once someone has come up with them and put them to the test.

 

[Bribie G]

Yes, things that now seem like the boringly bloody obvious just didn't register on the radar in former times. For example they came sooooo close to BIAB in the days of Dave Line in the UK in the 60s / 70s with their grain bag that lined their Electrim boilers, but the lightbulb didn't come on.


Fat *******, did you actually make that? Man that is radical, I love it. BIASB (Brew in a soft bucket ) B)

Brew day report please

 

[felten]

"collapsable bucket"

We'll see how it goes tomorrow. That cotton duck is virtually impervious to water once it's wet. I once grabbed a square of it to filter some chicken stock I made and it took nearly 2 hours for 6 litres to get through it! Works well for puddings and boiled sausages though. I'm hoping it does what I want for mashing too!

Thinking about holding 7 litres back from the strike water for mashing, sparging and giving it a good press with a potato masher. Squeezing the bag shouldn't be neccesary.

Very interested to see how you go with that.

 

[Bribie G]

If you didn't make it, then where did you get if from? I've only spent $16 to get into Bucket in Urn- BIU - so no skin off my nose to try BIASB

they might even let me back into BIABrewer.info h34r:

 

[Fat Bastard]

Using a bucket/solid sided bag doesn't really change much, and indeed a bucket with holes can be used in a 2/3V system (where the wort is removed from the mash).

There is nothing revolutionary here, using a bucket is just an evolution of the 'bag' designed to overcome problems with handling a dripping bag full of 65C grain. That's not to say that it's not a good idea, and as is the case with most developments they are blindingly obvious once someone has come up with them and put them to the test.

Evolution/Revolution. There is very little revolutionary any more. I'm coming into this with a fresh set of eyes, tomorrow will be my 3rd AG brew, and the first since I've tasted my own AG brew! I'm just trying to tune the process to my own circumstances, which is much like I do in my job in high tech manufacturing, most of which is surprisingly low tech.

Fat *******, did you actually make that? Man that is radical, I love it. BIASB (Brew in a soft bucket ) B)

Brew day report please

Hah! I stitched the duck by hand last night and went around to my mum's tonight to get her to run a couple of rows of stitches with the '69 model Lemair (I'm not given to an appreciation of sewing machines, but this one is a cool unit with it's 2 tone pastel blue and white paint job). Stitching the base gave her a conniption though!

Very interested to see how you go with that.

Will try to get some pics. I'm operating single handed tomorrow, the missus is going out early so beers and heavy rock all day!

 

[yardy]

Aha on re reading, I see where the confusion lies for Yardy Et Al, a lot of the photos ended up on Nala's thread where he is doing something similar.
So putting it all together;

BIU (bucket in urn) is basically BIAB with a "solid" bag.
The idea is that the grain is allowed to form a proper grain bed so the wort runs through the bed, not whooshing out of the sides of the bag.

I made the "solid bag" out of a Masters-brand 20L pail drilled at the bottom and fitted with a woolies $8 strainer hoofed into shape then wrapped in a hop bag for an extra fine "strain" and secured with some silicone hose. The latter two I already have, and they get used for their original purposes when not part of the BIU setup.

With big beers a wee sparge may also be performed if desired. At the end, the bucket is removed completely and the grain tipped out and the components retrieved. BIU has done its work.

Advantages: similar entry cost to BIAB
Easier to handle, more controllable
Easy cleanup with no bag to wash (I just rinse the hopsock and use immediately as a ..... hopsock )
Less loss to trub so $$$ savings over the brewing year

Another finding I haven't yet posted AFAIK, the main mash has NO PERCEPTIBLE temp drop during mashing as we have a double walled system happening here. In fact with a bit of judicious urn use the outer jacket of wort can be initialised at a degree or more warmer than the inner mash, so a 1.5 hour mash with no temp drop should be achievable. Of course the system is lagged as I did with BIAB

gday bribie, thanks for the post, some confusion with your mash though, you mention a sparge is done with big beers, what's your standard mash regime if you don't mind me asking ?

cheers

Yard

 

[beerdrinkingbob]

If you didn't make it, then where did you get if from? I've only spent $16 to get into Bucket in Urn- BIU - so no skin off my nose to try BIASB

they might even let me back into BIABrewer.info h34r:

Hey Bribie,

Did you end up buying another bucket and drilling lots of little holes in it, or your work around was the strainer? Also i was wondering are recirculating the entire batch to try and clear up the wort and rinse extra sugars trapped and how long is this taking you.

Cheers

BDB

 

[Spork]

Interesting thread, has got me thinking. I decided on BIAB because it seemed a simpler system and required less space (to store and to use) than 3v. Whether the "bag" is flexible or solid doesn't really affect that, as either way it will fit inside the urn.

Doing what Bribie is doing creates a filter and the sweet wort is brighter. But then you boil the wort for 60-90 minutes, and put hops in it. To my (limited) understanding this will reintroduce particles (hop matter and hot break) back into the wort. On this assumption, would any benefit be gained by "filtering" the bitter wort back through the grain bed? If this were done with the wort still at or close to 100c would that be enough to prevent any infection from the spent grain?

 

[Tim F]

I definitely wouldn't do that Spork - you might get away with it but there can be a lot of nasties on grain that you wouldn't want to get into your fermenter without a good long boil. You always get break material and hops in the boil for any method and the standard method for dealing with it is to stir your kettle into a whirlpool after the boil, then let it settle. This concentrates all the break material in the center of the kettle so you can slowly run off from the edges without picking any up. There are various filter options for your kettle too to help in straining out hops etc.

 

[Spork]

OK, thx. I figured there must be a reason it wasn't common practice already.

 

[pk.sax]

Spork, seems to me you will end up reabsorbing wort in the spent grain if you did this. Be a better idea to have some sort of filter online if you really want to get rid of all that. However, whirlpooling and later crash chilling beer precipitates all those particles anyway.

 

[Bribie G]

I havent done the million hole method yet, I'm already accumulating a heap of dead vessels with holes in the wrong place h34r:
On the subject of hop debris and break in the wort, I use a hopsock to reduce hop debris - it's actually the same Craftbrewer "grain" bag that did duty in the false bottom so more like a hop swimming enclosure than a hop sock.

Then after floccing, when the remaining trub in the kettle is cool enough, I filter through a sieve, either through hop flowers or through that exact same baggie. Love my baggies

So I lose very little to trub nowadays.