Aussie Schooner Tips British Pint!

[Bribie G]

Just sell the liquid by the milliliter. Then folk can provide their own vessels.
A vase of weisse please...

Disclaimer - i don't like lager, I drink 565ml measure, i call them pints. But I can see a schooner makes much more sense in 40C ...

Scruffy, glad to see you are alive and kicking, I was worried they'd deported you - how'd you wash up in the floods?

When I first arrived in QLD in the late 70s the standard drink was a seven ounce glass (33 cents ) followed by a ten ounce (42 cents). I couldn't believe the sevens, the second day in Oz, in Bundaberg actually at 29 degrees, I went out to have a counter lunch which was a huge novelty as there was little or no pub food in the UK at the time.

I said "what's the biggest beer size you can get?" ... Jug, sweetie.

So I had two jugs with lunch, being used to pints of 4.0 % ABV the 5% Fourex hit me like a ton of bricks and I was literally staggering and weaving home at 2 in the afternoon. Fortunately lived near the brick water tower so not too far to stagger B) In those days the ABV was a closely guarded secret and I quickly learned that XXXX ain't Carling.

Edit: I should say that I was a keen beer afficianado even back then, one of the first CAMRA and my palate was well tuned to Pilsner Urquell, Green King Abbott, you name it. And back then Aussie beers held their head up well against the worlds' best, I was very impressed - and certainly a cut way above Pom lagers in those days. I really think they have been dumbed down in the last few decades.

 

[DanRayner]

When I first arrived in QLD in the late 70s the standard drink was a seven ounce glass (33 cents ) followed by a ten ounce (42 cents). I couldn't believe the sevens, the second day in Oz, in Bundaberg actually at 29 degrees, I went out to have a counter lunch which was a huge novelty as there was little or no pub food in the UK at the time.

I said "what's the biggest beer size you can get?" ... Jug, sweetie.

So I had two jugs with lunch, being used to pints of 4.0 % ABV the 5% Fourex hit me like a ton of bricks and I was literally staggering and weaving home at 2 in the afternoon. Fortunately lived near the brick water tower so not too far to stagger B) In those days the ABV was a closely guarded secret and I quickly learned that XXXX ain't Carling.

Fantastic! HA! That's great if jugs then were what they are now (1125mL) that's pretty much four pints at lunch or eight standards! - good effort!

 

[Amin]

I don't recall a bottle of beer in a pub ever costing the same as a bottle in a bottle shop. A middy/schooner will cost less in a pub than a bottle in a pub cos the rate of excise is dramatically less on 50L kegs than on bottles.

But a liquor store does not have to have anywhere near the same on-going costs as a pub compared with the turnover of stock in each venue. Liquor stores generally have less staff on compared with the volume of liquor sold. Liquor stores can (might not, but can) have less floor space which should = less rent. The liquor store doesn't have to get a cleaner in at the end of every shift like a busy pub will.

I'm in my thirties and, in the cities I've lived in, a beer from a bottleshop has always been cheaper than in a pub.

Bu in terms of general increases in pub drinks in the last 5 yrs or so - that might have something to do with constant changes in industrial relations laws - staff at some of the pubs I worked in were paid under the table at one point, then after WorkChoices, they were all paid under a collective agreement (which wasn't so much of an agreement, more, the publican telling 18yr old staff what they would earn and encouraged to "sign here" or maybe not get any more shifts) and then with the scrapping of WorkChoices pay rates changed again - I can't imagine that for each of these situations staff costs consistantly went down.

Liquor licencing laws keep changing here in Canberra - that might also have increased prices? Dunno...

I should probably clarify this is what I've been told by people over 50 with reference to the 70's. Allowing for the increased costs of having people drink on the premises it still seems to me that their is a growing divergence between the cost of a beer in a pub and takeaway.

As for the industrial relations most bottleshop staff are paid under the same award as pubs, big chains such as Dan's place employees on an award that encompasses most woolworths employees. IIRC the rates for bar/bottle shop staff in SA went down after the national awards came in.

Not sure about liquor licensing laws , I can't imagine it is a huge cost on pubs unborn by retail outlets.

 

[Tim]

I think if landlords in the UK charged more than half the cost of a full pint for a half pint glass then people would simply not go to those pubs. There are plenty to go top, way more per capita than we have here. It's not a CAMRA thing, but a competition and historical thing. The extra cost of doing business is irrelevant. The customer is buying the beer, overheads and extra work in its serving are not the concern of the consumer he is simply paying for the beer. I'm not saying it's right or wrong its just the way it is.

Its the same with banking - no UK banks charge fees on ATM's and everyday accounts. If one did their customers would just up and leave to another bank. I think that ATM's are free regardless of which bank or ATM you belong to through legislation.

Also in the UK it doesn't cost more to call a UK landline than it does to a mobile. We get rorted here in that regard.

 

[DanRayner]

I should probably clarify this is what I've been told by people over 50 with reference to the 70's. Allowing for the increased costs of having people drink on the premises it still seems to me that their is a growing divergence between the cost of a beer in a pub and takeaway.

As for the industrial relations most bottleshop staff are paid under the same award as pubs, big chains such as Dan's place employees on an award that encompasses most woolworths employees. IIRC the rates for bar/bottle shop staff in SA went down after the national awards came in.

Not sure about liquor licensing laws , I can't imagine it is a huge cost on pubs unborn by retail outlets.

Ah fair enough. Cases of VB etc are often ridiculously cheap at places like Dan Murphy's and 1st Choice and when they are they are called "loss leaders" cos Coles and Woolies actually lose money on them - the theory being that if you enticed into the store to buy a $34 case of VB then you might buy a bottle of Hardy's red that they are making a massive margin on. I have a mate who works for 1st Choice and he said they lost $14million on VB alone last year - but don't hold me to it, he is only the manager of one Vintage Cellars and clearly they make money on other things cos Coles is a good bet on the stock market!

The average, independent liquor store will aim for a margin of 29-33% gross profit (GP) on a single bottle of beer (or a mark up of 50%), around 10% less or 22-25% GP on a sixpack of beer and another 10% less or 14-18% GP on a case of beer. That means if a bottle of LCPA costs about $2.16 (a fair estimate - a case after GST will cost about $52) then the bottleshop will make $1.08 per bottle when sold individually or a measly $0.53 per bottle when sold in a case priced at $65 (again, fair estimates). But they aim to sell loads and loads and loads and loads in a day. At some stage there is a point where the store pays for wages and rent and hopefully the owner can take home a little extra - but it's pretty cut-throat.

Most pubs/bars (at least in the ACT) will aim for an overall margin of around 80% GP which means a mark up of 400% on average for everything. Base spirits they probably get more and bottled beer they get waay less on. A pint of VB might cost the pub about $1.85 (based on a keg costing around $165) and so if they sell that pint for $6? then the GP is only 69% which is lower than other drinks, even if you pay $6.50 it's still only 71%. And if you pay $7.50 for a bottle of nice beer like a LCPA again, it's still about 71% GP. The margins for these pubs are 80% for a reason; they have waaaay more staff and higher rent compared with the paltry turnover of stock.

As for industrial relations laws staff at big bottleshops are paid the same award as little pub staff on paper but it is not always like that in reality - Dan Murphy's/1st Choice etc pay award wages above the table cos they are big, supposedly law-abiding companies, also they are only open during reasonable daylight+a-bit-extra hours.

Pubs work at all kinds of the day and night and the majority of their (usually casual) staff hours are during high penalty-rate times of the night and weekend - to offset these high-cost wages many pubs will offer their uni-student-casual staff under-the-table cash monies so that the kiddies can also claim Austudy/Dole whatever... These are not the same working conditions found at large supermarket chains.

I understand that this won't have had a noticeable effect on prices over the last few years and it only affects the ACT but liquor licences changed in the ACT in early December last year. If a pub wants to stay open after midnight now it has to pay a much higher licence fee - it depends on each venue of course but it went from say $2500 or so to about $15,000? but when you think about it that's the sort of amount that a medium-sized late-night pub/bar would hope to gross on a single Friday night. It was brought in so that the ACT Gov could pay for more coppers to deal with late-night drink-related violence. But it has been suggested that this might create more issues when the patrons from smaller pubs (that normally only open to say, 2am and can't justify the higher licence price) are now out and about looking for later-night venues and already have a gut full of booze... meh, whatever...

 

[Amin]

As for industrial relations laws staff at big bottleshops are paid the same award as little pub staff on paper but it is not always like that in reality - Dan Murphy's/1st Choice etc pay award wages above the table cos they are big, supposedly law-abiding companies, also they are only open during reasonable daylight+a-bit-extra hours.

Pubs work at all kinds of the day and night and the majority of their (usually casual) staff hours are during high penalty-rate times of the night and weekend - to offset these high-cost wages many pubs will offer their uni-student-casual staff under-the-table cash monies so that the kiddies can also claim Austudy/Dole whatever... These are not the same working conditions found at large supermarket chains.

Woolworth's and probably Coles doesn't pay the same award as bottleshops, they have their own agreement which covers all of their non salary workers.

It might be different in the ACT but in SA none of the hospitality workers I know (As a student I know a few) is paid a higher rate based on the time of day, they get a base rate + loading for being a casual no penalty rates for working nights. I'm also yet to met a barman/glassy being paid cash in a pub, most of them are run by large chains who avoid cash in hand payments for the same reason as Coles and Woolworths or don't want trouble with their liquor license. In my/ my friends experience the places paying cash in hand are small businesses such as fruit and veg shops or bakeries rather than chains or franchises.

I get that it costs more to have someone drink on premises, it might just be that I live in Adelaide but the increase in the cost of buying a pint in a pub seems to increase at a far greater rate than the cost of buying that same beer in the bottleshop attached to the pub, despite the introduction of pokie room's open 18 hours a day.

 

[thelastspud]

Not sure about liquor licensing laws , I can't imagine it is a huge cost on pubs unborn by retail outlets.

The pub I used to go to in my home town on a Friday and Saturday night had about 5-6 bouncers/doormen lets say they cost about $20 an hour each and they all do a 5 hour shift.
Thats 1000 a week, 52000 a year and they are there because of liquor licensing laws the police say they need x amount of security or the pub can't open.
Thats a huge cost that bottle shops don't really need to worry about.
You need great AC in the summer, in the winter you need to pay for patio heaters for the smokers, glasses disappear all the time, someone vandalizes the toilets/smoke machine/pool table, The staff steal everything that isn't nailed down, to stop that you need a great camera system(you need cameras anyway its a condition of licensing laws).

Then somehow you have to back sure no one on the premises is drunk. or you'll get fined by the licensing police.
y

 

[DanRayner]

Woolworth's and probably Coles doesn't pay the same award as bottleshops, they have their own agreement which covers all of their non salary workers.

It might be different in the ACT but in SA none of the hospitality workers I know (As a student I know a few) is paid a higher rate based on the time of day, they get a base rate + loading for being a casual no penalty rates for working nights. I'm also yet to met a barman/glassy being paid cash in a pub, most of them are run by large chains who avoid cash in hand payments for the same reason as Coles and Woolworths or don't want trouble with their liquor license. In my/ my friends experience the places paying cash in hand are small businesses such as fruit and veg shops or bakeries rather than chains or franchises.

I get that it costs more to have someone drink on premises, it might just be that I live in Adelaide but the increase in the cost of buying a pint in a pub seems to increase at a far greater rate than the cost of buying that same beer in the bottleshop attached to the pub, despite the introduction of pokie room's open 18 hours a day.

I'm guessing it is a little different here in Canberra; we don't have large companies that own chains of pubs - most are owned by individuals. I also understand that it would be different in Queensland, most pubs there actually being owned by Coles or Woolies cos of some weird-ass licensing law that only permits pub owners to be owners of liquor stores?

In the ACT we generally don't have bottlos attached to pubs (cos we don't have many actual pubs)

But we do have underpaid workers - this article talks about professional, mature staff reclaiming unpaid/under-the-table wages - it's so much worse and under-reported for teenage casuals working at bars, bakeries, restaurants etc while at uni. Those that are paid award wage as a casual usually get 25% extra for being casual, 50% for being casual on a Saturday, 75% extra for being a casual on a Sunday and 175% extra for working public holidays. That's under the new 2010 award, previous awards, some of which will still be in use and are searchable on the Fair Work Ombudsman's site, also included penalty rates for casuals working after 7pm. It's heartening to hear that all of your Adelaide uni friends get paid properly, that's a good thing.

Also, I fear it is only going to get more expensive in the Adelaide pubs that also have pokies: new national pokie laws - as these laws will probably lower the income of the ACT's social/sports clubs' revenue too...

The pub I used to go to in my home town on a Friday and Saturday night had about 5-6 bouncers/doormen lets say they cost about $20 an hour each and they all do a 5 hour shift.
Thats 1000 a week, 52000 a year and they are there because of liquor licensing laws the police say they need x amount of security or the pub can't open.
Thats a huge cost that bottle shops don't really need to worry about.
You need great AC in the summer, in the winter you need to pay for patio heaters for the smokers, glasses disappear all the time, someone vandalizes the toilets/smoke machine/pool table, The staff steal everything that isn't nailed down, to stop that you need a great camera system(you need cameras anyway its a condition of licensing laws).

Then somehow you have to back sure no one on the premises is drunk. or you'll get fined by the licensing police.
y

+ 1

Having worked 10yrs as a doorman $20/hr is way underpaid!

 

[stm]

An Aussie schooner (unless you're in Adelaide where they call it a pint) is 425mL or approximately 14 ounces (or 15 ounces if you are ready to believe Wikipedia even though 425mL converts 14.3 fluid ounces)

No, a 425ml schooner is in fact 15 ounces (specifically 14.96 fluid ounces (UK)). Your conversion to 14.3 used US ounces, which is not relevant to Australian beer measures. All your other conversions used UK fluid ounces.

Otherwise, a very informative and interesting post. Thanks.

 

[DanRayner]

No, a 425ml schooner is in fact 15 ounces (specifically 14.96 fluid ounces (UK)). Your conversion to 14.3 used US ounces, which is not relevant to Australian beer measures. All your other conversions used UK fluid ounces.

Otherwise, a very informative and interesting post. Thanks.

Happy to be corrected I did get a little confused as 14 US fluid ounces = 414mL and 15 US fluid ounces = 440mL. But it makes sense now

cheers,

D

 

[Amin]

I'm guessing it is a little different here in Canberra; we don't have large companies that own chains of pubs - most are owned by individuals. I also understand that it would be different in Queensland, most pubs there actually being owned by Coles or Woolies cos of some weird-ass licensing law that only permits pub owners to be owners of liquor stores?

In the ACT we generally don't have bottlos attached to pubs (cos we don't have many actual pubs)

That is quite different to here, Woolworths, Coles and groups like Independent Pub Group own quite a few and there are smaller chains like the Saturno family that are privately held and own 2-10 pubs with a sprinkling of independent owner operators. During my induction to for Dan Murphy's we were told that the only reason Woolworth ever bought a pub was because of the laws in Queensland, nothing to do with pokies.

But we do have underpaid workers - this article talks about professional, mature staff reclaiming unpaid/under-the-table wages - it's so much worse and under-reported for teenage casuals working at bars, bakeries, restaurants etc while at uni. Those that are paid award wage as a casual usually get 25% extra for being casual, 50% for being casual on a Saturday, 75% extra for being a casual on a Sunday and 175% extra for working public holidays. That's under the new 2010 award, previous awards, some of which will still be in use and are searchable on the Fair Work Ombudsman's site, also included penalty rates for casuals working after 7pm. It's heartening to hear that all of your Adelaide uni friends get paid properly, that's a good thing.

I think most of them are still being paid on the old state award, I know I am. My understanding is that there is a switch over period where the old award can still be used but I look forward to the rise in casual rates.

Also, I fear it is only going to get more expensive in the Adelaide pubs that also have pokies: new national pokie laws - as these laws will probably lower the income of the ACT's social/sports clubs' revenue too...

I'd rather that they didn't have pokies here, they've ruined plenty of pubs and I generally avoid drinking in pubs that have them so it won't affect me that often.

Having worked 10yrs as a doorman $20/hr is way underpaid!

Check out http://workingthedoors.co.uk/ and see what doorman are paid in the UK, it will scare you.

 

[DanRayner]

I think most of them are still being paid on the old state award, I know I am. My understanding is that there is a switch over period where the old award can still be used but I look forward to the rise in casual rates.

That would be good - all those awards were thrown out the window with WorkChoices and now have to be reinstated!

I'd rather that they didn't have pokies here, they've ruined plenty of pubs and I generally avoid drinking in pubs that have them so it won't affect me that often.

Agreed

Check out http://workingthedoors.co.uk/ and see what doorman are paid in the UK, it will scare you.

****, that's terrible. "Up to 11 per hour" + they have advertisements for "Knife and Bullet proof body armour" on the opening page! And a news article "Man jailed for 10 years after machete attack on door staff" - **** that, so not worth the risks.

 

[Amber Fluid]

All states are governed by different laws and by-laws, there are no Woolworths, Coles or supermarket stores in Tassie that sell any alcohol as it is against the law here.

In Tassie, having worked doors for 15 years (not for the last 8 years now though) I used to have people working for me for only $15 per hour. I also worked behind the bar in other jobs and do know first hand people do in fact get paid "under the table" after all, I was one of them due to me being only 17 at the time. Still having contacts in both industries I also know that this practice still exists. However, obviously it is a risk that the licencee would be held for.

 

[Hatchy]

All states are governed by different laws and by-laws, there are no Woolworths, Coles or supermarket stores in Tassie that sell any alcohol as it is against the law here.

In Tassie, having worked doors for 15 years (not for the last 8 years now though) I used to have people working for me for only $15 per hour. I also worked behind the bar in other jobs and do know first hand people do in fact get paid "under the table" after all, I was one of them due to me being only 17 at the time. Still having contacts in both industries I also know that this practice still exists. However, obviously it is a risk that the licencee would be held for.

The supermarkets don't sell booze here either.

Do you have bws, dan murphys or liquorland in tassie?

 

[Amber Fluid]

The supermarkets don't sell booze here either.

Do you have bws, dan murphys or liquorland in tassie?

Unless there is Liquorland in the North of the state, we only have BWS which I know is a Woolworths company.